Post by CW on Nov 14, 2018 20:01:32 GMT -6
CM Punk Interview - May 2001
Q: What brought you to the Domain in the first place?
PUNK: That's easy. I wanted to be an indy wrestler. I wanted to do the best I could. I started the LWF with a bunch of friends. We were just fans goofing around, regardless of what anybody says we were goofing around in our backyard. It got carried away, we got a ring, got a building. Somebody somehow got a promoters' license and we're running shows. Honest truth, after the first show I watched the tape and thought this is crap. I wasn't criticizing everybody, I was criticizing myself. I made a promise to myself that I wanted to get better. I don't know why it took so long. It took an entire year to go get trained. I wanted to be better. I wanted to be the best I could... If I'm going to be the best I could be, I wanted to be better than everybody else. I was a backyard wrestler. I wasn't going anywhere. LWF wasn't going to get me anywhere.
Q: I've seen a few interviews where you said there were only a couple of places to get trained in Illinois at that point. You could have picked Windy City. Could have picked PWI. Was it Danny (Dominion) who brought you in? Did you meet him somewhere?
PUNK: I was talking to Danny at WWF shows, he'd be doing dark matches. He knew who I was. He knew who LWF was. I'm sure he joked on us, but he's the most professional guy I'd ever met. He'd always been saying, hey guys, why don't you come out. It wasn't just to me. It was to Brutal Brad, Havok, Mimic, all the guys I would hang out with... He said he saw tapes and we weren't bad, but you need to learn this and you need to do that. He was always inviting us down and I just took him up on the invite. I went down there one or two times, they beat the hell out of me and I kept going back. Finally I signed up... They could have just blew us off and called us backyarders or charged me an astronomical fee and beat the hell out of me until I didn't come back. Didn't charge me as much as a lot of people talk about getting charged for wrestling. Some peole throw around $3,000. I won't say what I paid.
Q: You train in Chicago, but wrestle mostly outside, why is that?
PUNK: (Windy City owner) Sam (DeCero) doesn't use anybody but his own guys, although I've heard a rumor he's accepting tapes from outside talent. The real reason is there's some sort of heat with every single person who runs. I don't know (MCW owner Brian) Zenner, but there's a lot of guys I talk to who work for him who said they want to use me, but I never get used. No big deal, I don't mind. I'm booked. Danny and Ace were going up to St. Paul, so we got hooked up there. We get hooked up with Ian Rotten. Get hooked up in Mid American Wrestling and then you just network. Guy sees you on a show. I don't like dealing with the commission in Chicago. I used to run my own stuff and they're a pain in the ass. They're all boxing marks, you go in the office and there's boxing posters. Lucky Luciano.. they don't give two s*** about wrestling. They were always disrespectful and borderline jerks. I was always running around, getting the paperwork. It was a pain in the ass. Obvious reasons why I don't work for the LWF. Never really were asked to work, Sonny Rogers never asked me to work for him. I'm totally down with Sonny, me and him are cool. It was just something that never happened.
Q: You were working for (WWA's Mike) Bonomo before it folded up?
PUNK: The thing about that was Mick the Irish Assassin, a really good friend of mine was really, really pushing to get us in with Bonomo, for the longest time. It was a year before we actually started going. He was getting tapes, stuff like that. And eventually, Bonomo caved in and used us. He used me and Dominion in a show in September, in Manteno. He totally fell in love with us. After that it was bring this guy, bring that guy. We brought in Ace. I brought in (Colt) Cabana and Chuckie (Smooth). Eric Priest. Brought Ricky Noga. It was pretty cool while it lasted. He had a really nice setup. He had a nice ring. I loved that ring. Everything was smooth. The light setup and the ramp.
Q: I'm not saying you're looking for opportunities to work in Chicago, but the drive, I'm sure would be better.
PUNK: I am. If anybody out there wants to book me in Chicago, go for it. Not that I don't love driving all over the place, but an opportunity to work in Chicago would be nice.... I still talk to some fans from Chicago, they say they'd like to see you wrestle. I've got merchandise to sell and I've never sold it in Chicago.
Q: Nobody seems to debate that you're a top 10 wrestler in Chicago. It seems they're a little worried of losing their spots.
PUNK: That's sort of a sore subject for me, people worried about losing their spots. The way people backstab. They're nice to your face. It drives me crazy. If I have a problem, and most of the LWF guys know this. Acid and (Jay) Jensen to their credit, both went to the Hillside (NWA Midwest) show and both came up to me. They said we don't have any problems. We don't have problems. I'm sure they said some s*** about me and I said some s*** about them. I don't got time to worry about it and they don't have time to worry about it, so we buried the hatchet. It's cool. I hear rumors, certain people try to protect their spots. If you want to protect your spot, work harder, get better at what you do and just be a nice guy. Put people over. ... IWA show for Ian Rotten, best locker room, ever been in. Ian Rotten, before he brings anybody new, checks with every single person, is it cool if I bring this guy in? Do you have any heat with him? If you do, do you want me to talk to him? Do you guys want to work it out? He listens to his boys and I really respect that about him. It's a good working environment.
Q: Is working for Danny a pretty good deal?
PUNK: Excellent deal. Danny lets you do what you want. I have total input on what I do in St. Paul. Because of Danny and Ace Steel, I am the worker I am today, because of what they did for me in St. Paul is insane. I was the first guy to win the lightweight strap up there. I can't, to this day, believe how over I am up there. It's really nuts.... Working for Danny is really cool.
Q: When you started, when you said you were goofing around, did you know you'd want to do this full time?
PUNK: Yes, I did. I wanted to. But I knew if I wanted to do it full time, I had to learn what I was doing. I can build a house, with some wood and some nails, but chances are it'll fall apart in two years and it'll have a leaky roof, because I'm not a carpenter. If you really want to build a house, you go to trade school. I wanted to be a pro wrestler, so I had to go get trained. The only way you're going to be a pro wrestler is if you get trained. There's an LWF in every single state, probably two in every single state. Where a whole bunch of kids think they're the s***, they're good. I'll give them credit, a lot of them are. They can do shooting star presses and 450s. But you're not going to go anywhere without the basics. If you don't understand how to work the crowd, how to carry yourself outside of the wrestling ring, how to respect other wrestlers as individuals and how to respect the wrestling business as a whole. You're not going to go anywhere.
Q: Jay Jensen going out to California, I'm sure you think that's a good move.
PUNK: I think it's a brilliant idea. I emailed him about it, I said, good for you, go get trained. I told him I realize you think you're trained now, but you get out there and your eyes are opened up to a lot of different things. And he'll see himself become a better worker, immediately. I can't explain how many little things there are that you won't learn unless you go get trained. It wasn't just Danny and Ace, but I had Kevin Quinn from Windy City, Adam Pierce helped me out. They all showed me different little things and you're not going to learn that just getting in the ring and learning by watching TV or whatever.
Q: Did you train them?
PUNK: I don't credit myself for training any of those guys. That's kind of a touchy subject. Yeah, when I was in the LWF, I was the one holding the workouts. Honestly, I am responsible for some of it, but you can't be trained by a kid who was trained for only six months. I was still in training, just passing along what I knew, and that was a mistake. Simply because it was almost disrespectful to Danny and Ace. I still didn't know what I was doing. I probably thought I knew more than I really did.
Q: Did you enjoy your time (in LWF) at all?
PUNK: Yeah, I enjoyed my time. I used to be best friends with Billy Whack. Me and Havok were best friends. I was friends with a lot of those guys. I'm not saying I was best friends. We were pals, we'd hang out on weekends. We'd do shows and we'd go out to eat. I had no problems with any of them until working in the ring. Stuff just escalated. I still joke and talk about funny stories that happened in LWF. If circumstances were different and it was a perfect world, I'd miss those guys. But stuff happens, you've got to move on.
Q: Let's say MCW had you in for a show and they wanted you to work Acid. Would you do that?
PUNK: Yeah. I'd work him in a heartbeat. I'd have no problem working him. Or Magnificent Mike. Or Jensen. I really wish some of those guys would get trained. I don't care who it is. Go to Sonny. Go to Sam. Follow Jensen to APW. Come to the Domain. We don't care. We don't discriminate. Airborne came to the Domain, he told me he loved it, we showed him a few things he never saw before. We have an open-door policy at the Domain.
Q: I don't think you could leave a show without knowing who he was.
PUNK: Everybody remembers Chuckie Smooth.
Q: Are you mostly face, mostly heel? I've seen you both ways.
PUNK: I think that's why most promoters like me. I'm versatile. Dare I say I'm the biggest babyface in Minnesota, next to Jerry Lynn. In Wisconsin, I got an award as the most hated wrestler. I credit Danny and Ace. When I'm a heel, I go to get my heat. I go nuts, I go all out. I do the whole straight-edge thing. I'm drug-free, that means I'm better than you. It's never been done before. I try to make people like me when I'm a face. I try to make people hate me when I'm a heel. I used to think I was a better heel, but the way people have been taking to me in St. Paul, I don't even know anymore.
Q: Do you like gimmick matches like ladder matches, shopping cart matches?
PUNK: Shopping cart matches... Yes and no. I don't like gimmick matches for the sake of gimmick matches. Me and Ace have been feuding for over a year. The only way to go is a ladder match. We didn't work it so where it's us in a ring, the bell rings and we're falling off the ladder. We wrestled 15 minutes before we touched the ladder. We would watch ladder matches. Watched Shawn Michaels-Ramon, WrestleMania X. It still holds up to some extent. They don't really do a lot of crazy stuff. They built it up. They worked. The made the ladder mean something. They sold every single move like it was the finish. That's what me and Ace wanted to do. We didn't just want to just keep hitting these big moves and keep getting up and keep hitting these moves. We wanted to show that we both wanted the belt and we both wanted to bring the ladder. It's one of my better matches. I'm really proud of that match. I was messed up for two weeks after that and so was Ace, but it was really worth it. It was really well done. Gimimick matches for the sake of gimmick matches is not something I'm a fan of. I work for IWA, so a lot of those guys do hardcore. That's what they do, I don't knock them for it. But a well placed gimmick match in middle of the feud to settle something, like 2 out of 3 falls. A built-up rivalry that ends in a nice little gimmick match is always a plus. I've told promoters they want me to work a kid I've never worked before and they want me to do a ladder match, but it doesn't make sense. I'm not going to kill myself when it doesn't make sense.
Q: What is the deal with the shopping cart match?
PUNK: I guess the point was to get more people at the shows. I did the garbage thing and looking back on it now, it was silly and unnecessary. But I did it. And I think it worked. We started drawing like crazy after we did it. I said I'd never do it again, and I haven't. Me and Supreme had a nice little feud, as good as it was going to get, and that was a nice little blowoff for us. I guess for some reason people still talk about it like it was a legendary match or something. But it's really just a bunch of guys hitting each other with stuff.
Q: Were you one of the guys starting it... starting in Whack's backyard?
PUNK: I used to work with Whack at a comic shop. One day he asked me to do it with him. I said, all right, I'm a wrestling fan. Sure. I think it was like in 1993, I was like 15 years old. It was just goofing off, we'd watch a pay-per-view, go outside, start beating the hell out of each other. Everybody does it. It's not something I'm ashamed off. I ceased being a backyard wrestler as soon as I got trained and left the LWF. I read the Jimmy Strons interview. He said I was a hypocrite. I take exception to that. I'm not a backyard wrestler anymore and when I say yarders... I'm not stuck on the LWF. I mean everywhere, there's wrestlers everywhere, still talking about doing backyard show.
Q: When you decided to go to Steel Domain, is that when LWF wrestlers decided they didn't like you anymore?
PUNK: That was the beginning of it, yeah.
Q: You hear about your brother (Mike Broox) and you not getting along at all?
PUNK: Well, I used to be best friends with Billy Whack. I got along with my brother as well as brothers can get along. I don't talk to him anymore. I don't get along with him. I don't like him. It sounds lame, but I don't consider him my brother. A guy like Colt Cabana is my brother. He looks out for me, takes care of me. Danny and Ace are my brothers. I guess it was just me going to Domain and they thought I was better. I never said I was better than anybody. I wanted to be the best I could. If I came off like I had an ego, so be it. I didn't intentionally try to put anybody down.
Q: Was there any personal blowup between you and your brother, or was it a business thing that happened?
PUNK: My brother stole $7,000 from the LWF. I think that's common knowledge. Everybody seems to know that. It was something that really pissed us off, but the only guys who took it seriously were me and Charkoal at the time. Everybody else was really mad, but they were still friends with him. I thought that was a little fishy. $7,000 can be split a lot of ways, if you really look at it. I'm not pointing fingers, it's the past. To steal $7,000 to support your habits or whatever you used it for, that's not cool.
Q: If Sam was open to bring people in, would you be up for that?
PUNK: I'd work for anybody, sure.
Q: No problems with Windy City?
PUNK: Not at all.
Q: I know Danny used to work there.
PUNK: Danny left for the same reason a lot of other people left. Danny, Ace and Quinn left at the same time. It's the same story you hear from Capri and Reign. They were limited to what they could do, had to sell tickets to shows and it was a pain in the ass. They wanted to branch out and Sam wouldn't let them work other shows. To me, that's insane. As an indy wrestler, you can't work for one federation. You've got to go out there and get your name out.
Q: Have you ever encountered any of those things?
PUNK: Most of the people I work for are really cool. When Mid America runs Kenosha, I sell tickets because it's close. People from work want to see me wrestle, but there's never pressure to sell tickets or you won't be on the show. Never happened to me.... Everybody said that. Samson said that. Danny, Ace told me that, you hear it from Reign and Capri. It's no big secret. Sam probably makes a killing. If you're going to have family and friends coming to the show, big deal. But if I'm from Minnesota and driving down to Windy City and he tells me I've got to sell tickets, that's crazy. He should promote his show better, he shouldn't rely on his workers to sell tickets.
Q: Did you ever think about bringing in talent, like Windy City brought in Rob Van Dam?
PUNK: We thought about it, maybe garner some attention. You figure wrestling's wrestling. A fan's going to come see wrestling regardless of what it is. This is why I don't understand Zenner. For TV, I understand bringing in guys from APW, but when doing a regular show, I don't understand bringing in Simon Diamond, Scoot Andrews, Roadkill, Dawn Marie, Danny Doring. If you brought in just Simon Diamond and Dawn Marie, all the guys who were interested in seeing those other guys would be coming to the show anyway. So to have to pay the plane tickets, hotels, that's insane. If he wants to do it, more power to him. I'm not knocking any of the workers and I'm not knocking Zenner. I'm trying to think of wrestling demographics. Smart marks are going to see wrestling shows, if it's an indy show, whether it's King Kong Bundy, Jayson Reign, CM Punk or Hulk Hogan. They're on the Internet, they see a show near their house, they're going to go see it, regardless. A casual wrestling fan if he sees a commercial on TV and sees Rob Van Dam, you don't need to bring anybody else to the show. They're going to come regardless of who else is there. We just wanted to get our own guys over. Brought in Dino Bambino. We had decent shows, reason we stopped running, we had trouble finding a building. We didn't have a lot of time. I was working every weekend, so was Danny. Just a lack of time.
Q: So if someone would take care of the venues, that's what it would take?
PUNK: We've been talking about running again. With all the saturation. Everybody thinks they have a better product. LWF thinks they're better than everybody. Windy City thinks they're on top. Midwest Championship Wrestling thinks they have the better product. If me and Danny were to run again, I think we'd have the better product. I would bring in guys people have never seen before that in my opinion are the best in the Midwest. Suicide Kid, in Kentucky, is the best high flyer I've ever seen on the indys. He did a double moonsault off the top rope, two backflips in midair, and landed. It's crazy. All this stuff the kid can do. Chuckie, myself, Colt Cabana, Ace, Danny. Tons of guys are really good workers people don't know in Chicago. I'm confident if we brought them in, we'd have one hell of a show. People would want to come back and see it.
Q: What Bonomo had going on, people were coming back to see, but you were at the shows and saw some of the weird things. The Stone Cold impersonator.
PUNK: I don't know the Stone Cold impersonator guy. I was actually joking on him. When I saw him work, he actually - and this is probably because I had such low standards and I thought the guy was going to be terrible - he wasn't that bad. But the fake Stone Cold thing is lame. Fake anybody is lame. He had his version of Too Cool, his version of the Hardy Boyz. All his guys had little gimmicks. By the time I was there, Samson was just Samson and Brandon Bishop was just Brandon Bishop. They put on one hell of a main event. Me and Dominion had an excellent match, first time wrestled him in a singles match. And I think if he didn't do all the gimmicky WWF stuff, he'd still be running, and he'd be on top. Regardless of if he's a goofball. Put me with Bishop. Put Danny in with Samson and stopped doing all the WWF stuff. On the first show I worked for him, he was giving the stinkface to somebody. If that's what you want to do, it's what you want to do, fine, but that's probably one of the reasons he's not around anymore. First show I went to was at Manteno and it had 500-600 people at it and they were hot, they wanted to see wrestling. It was great.
Q: He probably was on top... his setup, his production...
PUNK: I was mindboggled. I walked in and handed him my music, he downloaded it and handed it back to me and said OK, now whenever you work here, we've got your music. I thought it was awesome. That's cool. Do you know how many CDs I've lost over the years handing guys my music and you forget to get it back. Another problem, every show I went to I worked Danny. We could change it up, but it was the same with everybody. I only saw Samson work Brandon Bishop. Fake Stone Cold work the Fake Rock guy, who was Fake Rock... Only seen Airborne and Freefall work Ace and Mick. Same show, just a different time. It fizzled out quick.
Q: I thought he used good workers. I thought Bishop was a good champion.
PUNK: Bishop is excellent. I miss seeing him. He knew who I was, we'd hang out and we talked. Last time I saw him was an NWA show. Two Bonomo guys, Adrenaline and Mad Midget. Mad Midget was hilarious. The kid's like 5-foot-5. He could do some stuff, but he was always working Adrenaline. Danny went up to Bonomo and asked to work Mad Midget. It would be so funny. He's so big and so tall and this kid is so little. He said he'd put the kid over and the crowd would go crazy. Bonomo didn't want anything to do with it. He had his set thing. He was set in his ways, and now he's extinct.
Q: How does a guy like Chuckie Smooth stumble into that gimmick?
PUNK: He was originally just Chuck Smooth. He did his own thing, feeling out what he wanted to do. Got the idea from Spicolli doing Madonna's boyfriend. It pissed him off, because Spicolli was Madonna's boyfriend, but never did anything with Madonna. He never really played up the gimmick. When Britney Spears hit the scene, a week later he said, "I'm Britney's boyfriend." What he does in Mid America and IWA, it is hilarious. He'll dance with people and they'll get up and move their seat. They're so disgusted. Excellent stuff.
Q: When you went to the Domain, what was the first thing you had to do?
PUNK: Get into better shape. When I went to the Domain, I was probably like 225. I just wanted to show I had the heart and I wanted to do it, so I was working out and I was asking them tips on working out. I was doing whatever was asked of me and I'll always try new things. That's how I got better. Doing leg sweeps and headlock takeovers, over and over again. One time, Kevin Quinn, he had just wrestling Phil LaFon or someone like that. He came back with 18 new ways to armdrag and he went over every single one of them. He made me armdrag every single time until it was perfect, which it never was. I was so sore, I must have done like 6,000 armdrags. Kevin Quinn wanted me to fail, I think. He was pushing me and pushing me, and I agree with this mentality, if you can't take it, don't come back. He said hey, I learned this from Phil LaFon, he put me in the Cobra Clutch and the next thing I know, I'm in the air and he's suplexing me on my head. He was like, how was that, and before I could answer, he'd do it again. I remember the hell getting beat out of me by Kevin Quinn. And I respect him for that. It's the best way to learn in my opinion, because it's the way I learned. I learned a lot quicker than I thought I would have learned otherwise. ... I'm not necessarily saying everyone needs to get dumped on their head, but when Danny and Ace were busy, Quinn would open up. He would show me drills to better my armdrags. He'd show me tricks he learned in Mexico, lucha stuff. ... I'd love for him to see me now. That'd be wild.
Q: When was the last time (Kevin Quinn) saw you?
PUNK: The last time he saw me was when he got called to do the WWF stuff. I haven't seen him since, he's moved to California.
Q: Have you seen Windy City shows?
PUNK: Last one I saw they had Chuckie Smooth, and it was Battle of the Belts. I want to say 2 years ago. Jayson Reign and Vic Capri did a ladder match. That's really the only match I remember.
Q: Did anything Windy City do strike you as special?
PUNK: A lot of it was basic, which was good. It worked. The crowd was eating it alive. The only guys who really ventured out of the basic stuff was Reign and Capri. They did some cool stuff with the ladder. But it was a regular indy show. Greg Valentine was on it.
Q: Reign and Capri are considrered the consensus 1-2 guys in Chicago. Do you agree with that?
PUNK: I think the No. 1 and No. 2 guys in the city - and it's just my opinion - Danny and Ace, then Colt Cabana. I'd put those guys ahead of me any day. Colt Cabana is such a good worker. He's only been in for two years. And he's a big guy, he's like 240, something like that. All muscle. He does all kinds of flips. Does a beautiful tumbleweed legdrop off the top rope. He can do all the high flying stuff. Ace is the best technical wrestler on the indy scene, bar none. Reign and Capri are good for different reasons. I'd like to see them work the crowd more. Every time I've seen them, it's silent. I understand they're doing the Japanese thing like that, but if you ignore the crowd, the crowd will ignore you. A big part of this business is reaction. You could be terrible, but get a good reaction. Look at Road Dogg and Billy Gunn. They weren't the greatest wrestling wise. They had their catchphrases and cliched moves and the crowd went nuts. To be truly successful, you have to connect with the fans, and I think that's something I do well. But yeah, I'm down with Reign and Capri. We had Capri work a Domain show in Joliet. He worked with Cabana and Danny and Ace. Every time I see him, we hang out, we talk. I've got no problems with him. I do think they're excellent workers. If there's anything they can improve on, it's working with the crowd. Everything else is there.
Q: Have you ever been approached at working WWF or WCW?
PUNK: Tail end of WCW, Danny and Ace were going, they did WXO tapings with Johnny Ace. Good friends with Jeremy Borash in Minnesota. He was on TV for a little bit. They were invited out. I was never invited by WCW. I'd like to say, soon. I'm getting a demo tape out, really professional, with music. I've never sent them a tape and that's one of the main reasons I've never gotten called. If they think you have talent, they'll call you. If you have a little bit of talent, they'll look at you. I haven't ever been called, but hopefully soon.
Q: But you know people who know people. And Danny has some connections.
PUNK: Jerry Lynn loves us. He worked Cabana, he worked Ace. He's been bragging to all his friends about how good Ace Steel is. He said he jelled with him so quickly. We're in contact with Jerry Lynn once in a while. He calls and we call him. It's a good contact to have. I'd love to see Danny and Ace go somewhere, because they deserve it. They're excellent.
Q: But your advantage would be your age (he's 22).
PUNK: I agree. I'm still waiting. I still don't think I'm good enough. I'd like to do a dark match to see what they say. The more I wait, the better I get. The better I get, the better chance I have. The more likely it's going to happen. When I do send my stuff in, I'm confident I'll at least get a response.
Q: You said you and Billy Whack were best friends. Would you ever talk with him again?
PUNK: I never talk to him, but I never say never about anything. In my 22 years on this earth, I've learned never to say never. Just the other day a friend of mine from high school I hadn't talked to for four years out of the blue called me. It's not like we had a falling out, we just lost contact. I never say never. It's very unlikely (he and Whack would talk), I'll say that. Me and him don't get along. We don't see eye to eye. We both have the same kind of attitude where it's my way or the highway, and that cause problems in LWF. Who is in charge? Ultimately I didn't care. I looked at it as a backyard federation, and I wanted to get out.
Q: Do you approach (the time in LWF) as something that never happened?
PUNK: Everybody I work for knows about it. It's not something I hide, but I don't say hey, guess what, I was a backyard wrestler. I started at the Domain, I trained at the Domain. That's where I came from. A lot of what kills me, it's fans - and I think it really is fans - posting on my website and other websites, trying to keep the heat alive between me and the LWF. Half of them would just as soon forget about it, just like I would just as soon forget about it. There's probably a few guys over there who harbor some ill will about personal things. But I think the majority of us would just as soon forget about it and move on. Acid, Jensen, Magnificent Mike have no problem with me. You never know. Maybe I'll end up in MCW working them.
Q: Those three have been working other shows and it looks like they may be on their way out.
PUNK: It's no secret. I wish they would all leave. They're not going to go anywhere, and I think Jensen realizes that. Jensen hasn't trashed the LWF, but he told me he's sick of the bullsh**. And it's probably the same bullsh** that's always going on. You've got 8 guys or 6 guys or whatever telling everybody that they own it, which is a lie. Nobody owns the LWF, unless they've done something about it since I left, but that was always a joke. It was never a corporation, it was seven friends.
Q: Is LWF Whack's product? Is it your brother's product?
PUNK: I think now it's Whack's product. I'm sure a lot of guys still have input. The guys I will credit for making the LWF what it was are me, Charkoal, Brian Waz and Billy Whack. Brian Waz would bust his ass and promote the hell out of it. Me and Charkoal ran the business part of it, after my brother took the money. That's where all the heat went down, that's where everything went down. Billy Whack took care of his guys. The Frat Boys took care of their stuff and we came up with our stuff. It was almost like two different feds.
Q: How could your brother continue to work in the company if there was such a problem?
PUNK: He didn't. He was gone. After I left, he came back. A lot of us took it personally. He didn't just take it from me, he took it from everybody who put hard work into the LWF. Which isn't a lot of people. Billy Whack was a cornerstone, he helped out, but we had problems getting guys to show up for practice. Billy Whack, while he was one of the guys who helped out, he was also one of the detrimental things. He wanted his girlfriend involved, got everybody's girlfriend involved. Had friends who wanted to be wrestlers, but never showed up at practice to learn anything. They didn't even work out. Just a bunch of kids he was friends with who wanted to roll around inside a ring in front of a crowd of 500 people, making complete fools out of themselves, making the product look like crap, which wasn't hard to do to begin with.
Q: But a guy like Zenner brings in all that talent and has trouble drawing 400 people. How did LWF get such huge crowds?
PUNK: It blows my mind. I don't know what they're drawing now, but back in the day we had 900 people at shows. It still boggles my mind. I was talking with Eric Priest about it. The place was packed and I do not understand to this day why we had so many people. Because out of six matches on the show, there may have been two good matches. And the rest was just crap, utter crap. A guy like Rick Package, who was a friend of Billy Whack, well just throw him in the ring. The kid's athletic and if he would have been trained, damn it he would have been good. But he never bothered.
Q: But Reign has worked for them and now Airborne works for them. Does that legitimize LWF on any level?
PUNK: I don't think it legitimizes the LWF, if anything it might ... I don't want to say tarnish Airborne and Reign. I don't know. Work is work. I just hope those guys are getting paid. There's no excuse to not pay those guys. I don't think Reign would be stupid enough to work with those guys without getting paid.
Q: Jayson Reign was working out with the LWF, mostly because he says he didn't feel welcome at the Domain. Did you hear about that?
PUNK: Yeah, I talked to him about that. He said Danny never called him back. But Danny was in the midst of some personal trouble with his wife and he wasn't at that phone number anymore and he never got those messages. He came to the Domain one time. I worked out with him. I told him, come back whenever you want, him and Capri. Capri just ran into Ace Steel at a Powerhouse Gym in Arlington Heights. He said whenever you want to come out, come out. We have an open-door policy, like I said. We had Airborne there. We've had PWI guys there.
Q: Are you guys on good terms with the PWI/PCW?
PUNK: I don't even know who runs it anymore. I don't know if Sonny's running it or what? Jimmy Blaze? I don't know. I don't have a problem with any of those guys.
Q: So Sonny and the guys get along with the Domain?
PUNK: Yep. I say Sonny in Wisconsin a couple of months ago and he invited me down. He gave me his number. I respect Sonny for what he's done, the guy's been around 20 years.
Q: If they asked you to be involved in their relaunch show in Melrose Park, would you be interested in something like that?
PUNK: What's the date? (June 23).... I think I'm already booked that day, but yeah, I'd be there. I've got no problems. That may be a misconception. People think I won't work for them, so they don't ask, but yeah, I've got email, I've got a phone. They can email or call me, they know how to get ahold of me. If anybody ever wants to use me, go for it. I'd love to work in Chicago again. I think I'd make a killing selling my T-shirts.
Q: I consider you guys Chicago workers, but you don't work in Chicago and a lot of people don't consider you Chicago workers.
PUNK: Makes sense. Out of sight, out of mind. We are Chicago workers. I was born and raised here. It'd just be nice to work in Chicago again. ... But I like going on the road. I think guys who don't travel are missing out. But in order to travel, you've got to get trained so you've got something to say. If somebody asked these LWF guys who trained you, I don't know what they would say. If they said me, they'd be dead wrong and I would deny it. I don't know who they'd say, but you've got to say somebody. I came from somewhere, oh yeah, heard of that guy. If he says you're good, I'll use you.
Q: So when you're trained, it's better to have someone whose name is recognizable.
PUNK: I've been booked on shows before because somebody asked who trained you and I said Danny Dominion and Ace Steel. They said really, I'd like to use you. That's happened plenty of times.
Q: They seem to name you as one of the top guys they've trained. Does that make you feel special?
PUNK: It makes me feel damn good. Me and Ace were so elated after our ladder match. I got home and wrote him a big email. And I always say this to Ace, after a big match, or I see something disgusting or ridiculous that shouldn't happened if someone is untrained and I say, thanks for training me. He's told me plenty of time, him and Danny, how proud they are of me. And I've come a long way and I'm decent now.
Q: You talk about where you've come from and a lot of talk from LWF is about Acid. Have you worked Acid?
PUNK: One time.
Q: How would you describe that one time?
PUNK: I think it was terrible watching it now. I watch it now and I think Jesus Christ, what the hell am I doing. I wasn't in anywhere near the shape I'm in now. I'm green, which made him 10 times more green than me, and it's just two guys, spot after spot after spot and we tried to memorize. I pride myself now... if I was working Mid South in 1983 and it was heels in one locker room and faces in one locker room I'd be able to walk in the ring without ever talking with my opponent and I'd have a decent match. That's what training does. You learn how to call things in the ring. You learn what makes sense. You learn theory. You learn how to place things in matches, you learn how to hit the big moves when they count. You learn how to turn the ref if you've got a heel manager. If I worked him now, it would be 10 times better and I think it would be a match that would draw money because people would want to see what would happen because of the tension.
Q: If people try to talk about tension with anybody in the LWF, it's always Acid. I know you match up size wise and talent wise, but is it odd that it's always him, yet you've only met in the ring once?
PUNK: No, it makes sense to me, because he's probably the best guy they've got. Everyone recognizes that. I have no problem - Phil Brooks has no problem with Mike Nolan.
Q: You say he should get trained. If he went to the Domain, for instance, what could he become?
PUNK: He could become a f***ing good worker. And he could get hooked up. Me and Cabana have all kinds of connections and we've got connections in Michigan, in Canada, in Kentucky, in Indiana, in Wisconsin. Now with East Coast opening up. There's talks about us going to CZW. It's connections. Connections is how you make it on the indy scene. You get trained, the guys who train you help you out. You network. You talk. A lot of those guys could be good if they would get their heads out of their ass and stop f***ing around with the LWF. I understand, Billy Whack. The LWF probably is always going to be there. I've come to terms with that. But if these guys want to do something with their careers, they have to do what I did. Look what I was doing in the LWF compared to what I'm doing now. I haven't had a weekend off in 8 months.
Q: Is that the way you like it?
PUNK: I love it. I've sacrificed a lot, Al, for doing this. It's probably no secret I've sacrificed my relationship with my girlfriend, which was a f***ing disaster. I'm still friends with her thank God, because she's a really rad person, but I had no time for her, I felt terrible. I've sacrificed going to see my best friend's graduation. I had to work. I've sacrificed seeing my best friends get married. And it's hey, you gonna come to my wedding? No, I'm going to be in Detroit to wrestle. And I feel bad, but I don't, because I know someday it's going to pay off. I like being recognized as the hardest working independent wrestler. Nobody can say they haven't had a week off in 8 months. Nobody can say that. Every weekend, we're somewhere. It's going to be to the point where I can say I haven't had a weekend off in 13 months. I don't want to take a weekend off and I'm booked right now through August. I'm fine up until 8 months into the year and I'm sure I'm always going to be able to find some work somewhere. ... I have a lot of good friends who put up with so much bullshit. ... I want you to print that, my ex-girlfriend, she's still my best friend. She put up with so much crap. And being a girlfriend of a wrestler is like being married to them. You hear stories about hooking up with the rats and all this other stuff. I never dealt with rats and God bless her, she knew that. But it's hard. It's hard on friends, it's hard on family and it's hard on them. There have been little crappy shows I've gone to and I'm thinking why did I come here? I could be doing this, I could be at Great America with all my friends, but no, I've got to come here and this place doesn't have a working toilet, I'm changing in the basement, it's cold and there's 3 inches of water and here I am. It builds character, it makes you a better worker and makes you appreciate when you are in a big locker room and you do have room to change and there's not 26 people crammed into a closet.
Q: Along the same lines, I'm guessing if you work for Vince McMahon and you've got a pay-per-view, you can't really say no.
PUNK: You don't say no to the god of wrestling, you know. You could say no to indy promoters, but it's just going to hold you back. ... you have to do what you have to do to get where you have to be. I'm confident somebody from the Domain is going to make it because Danny and Ace didn't just teach us how to wrestle. They taught us work ethic. They taught us how to handle ourselves inside and outside of the ring, to be professional, how to talk to a promoter, how to say no to a promoter, which is something some guys are afraid to do. If I'm working for a promoter for the first time and he asks me to get color, I'm saying no. I don't care what he does. I say no. If he says he's not going to pay me, that's wrong. I made it to the show, you're paying me. You've got to be able to say no and Danny and Ace taught me so much. Don't be a dickhead, don't bury people. Be sincere. Don't talk shit on the Internet. If you have a problem with somebody, stay away from them. Don't start fights in locker rooms. Mind your own business. Wrestling is a big place. If you're on a show with somebody you don't like, just ignore them. Say hi, shake their hand you don't have to talk to them.
Q: I noticed Danny's post on my message board.
PUNK: It was brilliant. ... Danny doesn't have a computer. He was probably at Ace's. I think he checks stuff out once a month and he saw some stuff and it was like damn it. He gave everybody a free lesson that day. Everybody should pay him 50 bucks or something like that. He just went off. He was like what is this? If you don't like the guy, ignore him.
Q: What brought you to the Domain in the first place?
PUNK: That's easy. I wanted to be an indy wrestler. I wanted to do the best I could. I started the LWF with a bunch of friends. We were just fans goofing around, regardless of what anybody says we were goofing around in our backyard. It got carried away, we got a ring, got a building. Somebody somehow got a promoters' license and we're running shows. Honest truth, after the first show I watched the tape and thought this is crap. I wasn't criticizing everybody, I was criticizing myself. I made a promise to myself that I wanted to get better. I don't know why it took so long. It took an entire year to go get trained. I wanted to be better. I wanted to be the best I could... If I'm going to be the best I could be, I wanted to be better than everybody else. I was a backyard wrestler. I wasn't going anywhere. LWF wasn't going to get me anywhere.
Q: I've seen a few interviews where you said there were only a couple of places to get trained in Illinois at that point. You could have picked Windy City. Could have picked PWI. Was it Danny (Dominion) who brought you in? Did you meet him somewhere?
PUNK: I was talking to Danny at WWF shows, he'd be doing dark matches. He knew who I was. He knew who LWF was. I'm sure he joked on us, but he's the most professional guy I'd ever met. He'd always been saying, hey guys, why don't you come out. It wasn't just to me. It was to Brutal Brad, Havok, Mimic, all the guys I would hang out with... He said he saw tapes and we weren't bad, but you need to learn this and you need to do that. He was always inviting us down and I just took him up on the invite. I went down there one or two times, they beat the hell out of me and I kept going back. Finally I signed up... They could have just blew us off and called us backyarders or charged me an astronomical fee and beat the hell out of me until I didn't come back. Didn't charge me as much as a lot of people talk about getting charged for wrestling. Some peole throw around $3,000. I won't say what I paid.
Q: You train in Chicago, but wrestle mostly outside, why is that?
PUNK: (Windy City owner) Sam (DeCero) doesn't use anybody but his own guys, although I've heard a rumor he's accepting tapes from outside talent. The real reason is there's some sort of heat with every single person who runs. I don't know (MCW owner Brian) Zenner, but there's a lot of guys I talk to who work for him who said they want to use me, but I never get used. No big deal, I don't mind. I'm booked. Danny and Ace were going up to St. Paul, so we got hooked up there. We get hooked up with Ian Rotten. Get hooked up in Mid American Wrestling and then you just network. Guy sees you on a show. I don't like dealing with the commission in Chicago. I used to run my own stuff and they're a pain in the ass. They're all boxing marks, you go in the office and there's boxing posters. Lucky Luciano.. they don't give two s*** about wrestling. They were always disrespectful and borderline jerks. I was always running around, getting the paperwork. It was a pain in the ass. Obvious reasons why I don't work for the LWF. Never really were asked to work, Sonny Rogers never asked me to work for him. I'm totally down with Sonny, me and him are cool. It was just something that never happened.
Q: You were working for (WWA's Mike) Bonomo before it folded up?
PUNK: The thing about that was Mick the Irish Assassin, a really good friend of mine was really, really pushing to get us in with Bonomo, for the longest time. It was a year before we actually started going. He was getting tapes, stuff like that. And eventually, Bonomo caved in and used us. He used me and Dominion in a show in September, in Manteno. He totally fell in love with us. After that it was bring this guy, bring that guy. We brought in Ace. I brought in (Colt) Cabana and Chuckie (Smooth). Eric Priest. Brought Ricky Noga. It was pretty cool while it lasted. He had a really nice setup. He had a nice ring. I loved that ring. Everything was smooth. The light setup and the ramp.
Q: I'm not saying you're looking for opportunities to work in Chicago, but the drive, I'm sure would be better.
PUNK: I am. If anybody out there wants to book me in Chicago, go for it. Not that I don't love driving all over the place, but an opportunity to work in Chicago would be nice.... I still talk to some fans from Chicago, they say they'd like to see you wrestle. I've got merchandise to sell and I've never sold it in Chicago.
Q: Nobody seems to debate that you're a top 10 wrestler in Chicago. It seems they're a little worried of losing their spots.
PUNK: That's sort of a sore subject for me, people worried about losing their spots. The way people backstab. They're nice to your face. It drives me crazy. If I have a problem, and most of the LWF guys know this. Acid and (Jay) Jensen to their credit, both went to the Hillside (NWA Midwest) show and both came up to me. They said we don't have any problems. We don't have problems. I'm sure they said some s*** about me and I said some s*** about them. I don't got time to worry about it and they don't have time to worry about it, so we buried the hatchet. It's cool. I hear rumors, certain people try to protect their spots. If you want to protect your spot, work harder, get better at what you do and just be a nice guy. Put people over. ... IWA show for Ian Rotten, best locker room, ever been in. Ian Rotten, before he brings anybody new, checks with every single person, is it cool if I bring this guy in? Do you have any heat with him? If you do, do you want me to talk to him? Do you guys want to work it out? He listens to his boys and I really respect that about him. It's a good working environment.
Q: Is working for Danny a pretty good deal?
PUNK: Excellent deal. Danny lets you do what you want. I have total input on what I do in St. Paul. Because of Danny and Ace Steel, I am the worker I am today, because of what they did for me in St. Paul is insane. I was the first guy to win the lightweight strap up there. I can't, to this day, believe how over I am up there. It's really nuts.... Working for Danny is really cool.
Q: When you started, when you said you were goofing around, did you know you'd want to do this full time?
PUNK: Yes, I did. I wanted to. But I knew if I wanted to do it full time, I had to learn what I was doing. I can build a house, with some wood and some nails, but chances are it'll fall apart in two years and it'll have a leaky roof, because I'm not a carpenter. If you really want to build a house, you go to trade school. I wanted to be a pro wrestler, so I had to go get trained. The only way you're going to be a pro wrestler is if you get trained. There's an LWF in every single state, probably two in every single state. Where a whole bunch of kids think they're the s***, they're good. I'll give them credit, a lot of them are. They can do shooting star presses and 450s. But you're not going to go anywhere without the basics. If you don't understand how to work the crowd, how to carry yourself outside of the wrestling ring, how to respect other wrestlers as individuals and how to respect the wrestling business as a whole. You're not going to go anywhere.
Q: Jay Jensen going out to California, I'm sure you think that's a good move.
PUNK: I think it's a brilliant idea. I emailed him about it, I said, good for you, go get trained. I told him I realize you think you're trained now, but you get out there and your eyes are opened up to a lot of different things. And he'll see himself become a better worker, immediately. I can't explain how many little things there are that you won't learn unless you go get trained. It wasn't just Danny and Ace, but I had Kevin Quinn from Windy City, Adam Pierce helped me out. They all showed me different little things and you're not going to learn that just getting in the ring and learning by watching TV or whatever.
Q: Did you train them?
PUNK: I don't credit myself for training any of those guys. That's kind of a touchy subject. Yeah, when I was in the LWF, I was the one holding the workouts. Honestly, I am responsible for some of it, but you can't be trained by a kid who was trained for only six months. I was still in training, just passing along what I knew, and that was a mistake. Simply because it was almost disrespectful to Danny and Ace. I still didn't know what I was doing. I probably thought I knew more than I really did.
Q: Did you enjoy your time (in LWF) at all?
PUNK: Yeah, I enjoyed my time. I used to be best friends with Billy Whack. Me and Havok were best friends. I was friends with a lot of those guys. I'm not saying I was best friends. We were pals, we'd hang out on weekends. We'd do shows and we'd go out to eat. I had no problems with any of them until working in the ring. Stuff just escalated. I still joke and talk about funny stories that happened in LWF. If circumstances were different and it was a perfect world, I'd miss those guys. But stuff happens, you've got to move on.
Q: Let's say MCW had you in for a show and they wanted you to work Acid. Would you do that?
PUNK: Yeah. I'd work him in a heartbeat. I'd have no problem working him. Or Magnificent Mike. Or Jensen. I really wish some of those guys would get trained. I don't care who it is. Go to Sonny. Go to Sam. Follow Jensen to APW. Come to the Domain. We don't care. We don't discriminate. Airborne came to the Domain, he told me he loved it, we showed him a few things he never saw before. We have an open-door policy at the Domain.
Q: I don't think you could leave a show without knowing who he was.
PUNK: Everybody remembers Chuckie Smooth.
Q: Are you mostly face, mostly heel? I've seen you both ways.
PUNK: I think that's why most promoters like me. I'm versatile. Dare I say I'm the biggest babyface in Minnesota, next to Jerry Lynn. In Wisconsin, I got an award as the most hated wrestler. I credit Danny and Ace. When I'm a heel, I go to get my heat. I go nuts, I go all out. I do the whole straight-edge thing. I'm drug-free, that means I'm better than you. It's never been done before. I try to make people like me when I'm a face. I try to make people hate me when I'm a heel. I used to think I was a better heel, but the way people have been taking to me in St. Paul, I don't even know anymore.
Q: Do you like gimmick matches like ladder matches, shopping cart matches?
PUNK: Shopping cart matches... Yes and no. I don't like gimmick matches for the sake of gimmick matches. Me and Ace have been feuding for over a year. The only way to go is a ladder match. We didn't work it so where it's us in a ring, the bell rings and we're falling off the ladder. We wrestled 15 minutes before we touched the ladder. We would watch ladder matches. Watched Shawn Michaels-Ramon, WrestleMania X. It still holds up to some extent. They don't really do a lot of crazy stuff. They built it up. They worked. The made the ladder mean something. They sold every single move like it was the finish. That's what me and Ace wanted to do. We didn't just want to just keep hitting these big moves and keep getting up and keep hitting these moves. We wanted to show that we both wanted the belt and we both wanted to bring the ladder. It's one of my better matches. I'm really proud of that match. I was messed up for two weeks after that and so was Ace, but it was really worth it. It was really well done. Gimimick matches for the sake of gimmick matches is not something I'm a fan of. I work for IWA, so a lot of those guys do hardcore. That's what they do, I don't knock them for it. But a well placed gimmick match in middle of the feud to settle something, like 2 out of 3 falls. A built-up rivalry that ends in a nice little gimmick match is always a plus. I've told promoters they want me to work a kid I've never worked before and they want me to do a ladder match, but it doesn't make sense. I'm not going to kill myself when it doesn't make sense.
Q: What is the deal with the shopping cart match?
PUNK: I guess the point was to get more people at the shows. I did the garbage thing and looking back on it now, it was silly and unnecessary. But I did it. And I think it worked. We started drawing like crazy after we did it. I said I'd never do it again, and I haven't. Me and Supreme had a nice little feud, as good as it was going to get, and that was a nice little blowoff for us. I guess for some reason people still talk about it like it was a legendary match or something. But it's really just a bunch of guys hitting each other with stuff.
Q: Were you one of the guys starting it... starting in Whack's backyard?
PUNK: I used to work with Whack at a comic shop. One day he asked me to do it with him. I said, all right, I'm a wrestling fan. Sure. I think it was like in 1993, I was like 15 years old. It was just goofing off, we'd watch a pay-per-view, go outside, start beating the hell out of each other. Everybody does it. It's not something I'm ashamed off. I ceased being a backyard wrestler as soon as I got trained and left the LWF. I read the Jimmy Strons interview. He said I was a hypocrite. I take exception to that. I'm not a backyard wrestler anymore and when I say yarders... I'm not stuck on the LWF. I mean everywhere, there's wrestlers everywhere, still talking about doing backyard show.
Q: When you decided to go to Steel Domain, is that when LWF wrestlers decided they didn't like you anymore?
PUNK: That was the beginning of it, yeah.
Q: You hear about your brother (Mike Broox) and you not getting along at all?
PUNK: Well, I used to be best friends with Billy Whack. I got along with my brother as well as brothers can get along. I don't talk to him anymore. I don't get along with him. I don't like him. It sounds lame, but I don't consider him my brother. A guy like Colt Cabana is my brother. He looks out for me, takes care of me. Danny and Ace are my brothers. I guess it was just me going to Domain and they thought I was better. I never said I was better than anybody. I wanted to be the best I could. If I came off like I had an ego, so be it. I didn't intentionally try to put anybody down.
Q: Was there any personal blowup between you and your brother, or was it a business thing that happened?
PUNK: My brother stole $7,000 from the LWF. I think that's common knowledge. Everybody seems to know that. It was something that really pissed us off, but the only guys who took it seriously were me and Charkoal at the time. Everybody else was really mad, but they were still friends with him. I thought that was a little fishy. $7,000 can be split a lot of ways, if you really look at it. I'm not pointing fingers, it's the past. To steal $7,000 to support your habits or whatever you used it for, that's not cool.
Q: If Sam was open to bring people in, would you be up for that?
PUNK: I'd work for anybody, sure.
Q: No problems with Windy City?
PUNK: Not at all.
Q: I know Danny used to work there.
PUNK: Danny left for the same reason a lot of other people left. Danny, Ace and Quinn left at the same time. It's the same story you hear from Capri and Reign. They were limited to what they could do, had to sell tickets to shows and it was a pain in the ass. They wanted to branch out and Sam wouldn't let them work other shows. To me, that's insane. As an indy wrestler, you can't work for one federation. You've got to go out there and get your name out.
Q: Have you ever encountered any of those things?
PUNK: Most of the people I work for are really cool. When Mid America runs Kenosha, I sell tickets because it's close. People from work want to see me wrestle, but there's never pressure to sell tickets or you won't be on the show. Never happened to me.... Everybody said that. Samson said that. Danny, Ace told me that, you hear it from Reign and Capri. It's no big secret. Sam probably makes a killing. If you're going to have family and friends coming to the show, big deal. But if I'm from Minnesota and driving down to Windy City and he tells me I've got to sell tickets, that's crazy. He should promote his show better, he shouldn't rely on his workers to sell tickets.
Q: Did you ever think about bringing in talent, like Windy City brought in Rob Van Dam?
PUNK: We thought about it, maybe garner some attention. You figure wrestling's wrestling. A fan's going to come see wrestling regardless of what it is. This is why I don't understand Zenner. For TV, I understand bringing in guys from APW, but when doing a regular show, I don't understand bringing in Simon Diamond, Scoot Andrews, Roadkill, Dawn Marie, Danny Doring. If you brought in just Simon Diamond and Dawn Marie, all the guys who were interested in seeing those other guys would be coming to the show anyway. So to have to pay the plane tickets, hotels, that's insane. If he wants to do it, more power to him. I'm not knocking any of the workers and I'm not knocking Zenner. I'm trying to think of wrestling demographics. Smart marks are going to see wrestling shows, if it's an indy show, whether it's King Kong Bundy, Jayson Reign, CM Punk or Hulk Hogan. They're on the Internet, they see a show near their house, they're going to go see it, regardless. A casual wrestling fan if he sees a commercial on TV and sees Rob Van Dam, you don't need to bring anybody else to the show. They're going to come regardless of who else is there. We just wanted to get our own guys over. Brought in Dino Bambino. We had decent shows, reason we stopped running, we had trouble finding a building. We didn't have a lot of time. I was working every weekend, so was Danny. Just a lack of time.
Q: So if someone would take care of the venues, that's what it would take?
PUNK: We've been talking about running again. With all the saturation. Everybody thinks they have a better product. LWF thinks they're better than everybody. Windy City thinks they're on top. Midwest Championship Wrestling thinks they have the better product. If me and Danny were to run again, I think we'd have the better product. I would bring in guys people have never seen before that in my opinion are the best in the Midwest. Suicide Kid, in Kentucky, is the best high flyer I've ever seen on the indys. He did a double moonsault off the top rope, two backflips in midair, and landed. It's crazy. All this stuff the kid can do. Chuckie, myself, Colt Cabana, Ace, Danny. Tons of guys are really good workers people don't know in Chicago. I'm confident if we brought them in, we'd have one hell of a show. People would want to come back and see it.
Q: What Bonomo had going on, people were coming back to see, but you were at the shows and saw some of the weird things. The Stone Cold impersonator.
PUNK: I don't know the Stone Cold impersonator guy. I was actually joking on him. When I saw him work, he actually - and this is probably because I had such low standards and I thought the guy was going to be terrible - he wasn't that bad. But the fake Stone Cold thing is lame. Fake anybody is lame. He had his version of Too Cool, his version of the Hardy Boyz. All his guys had little gimmicks. By the time I was there, Samson was just Samson and Brandon Bishop was just Brandon Bishop. They put on one hell of a main event. Me and Dominion had an excellent match, first time wrestled him in a singles match. And I think if he didn't do all the gimmicky WWF stuff, he'd still be running, and he'd be on top. Regardless of if he's a goofball. Put me with Bishop. Put Danny in with Samson and stopped doing all the WWF stuff. On the first show I worked for him, he was giving the stinkface to somebody. If that's what you want to do, it's what you want to do, fine, but that's probably one of the reasons he's not around anymore. First show I went to was at Manteno and it had 500-600 people at it and they were hot, they wanted to see wrestling. It was great.
Q: He probably was on top... his setup, his production...
PUNK: I was mindboggled. I walked in and handed him my music, he downloaded it and handed it back to me and said OK, now whenever you work here, we've got your music. I thought it was awesome. That's cool. Do you know how many CDs I've lost over the years handing guys my music and you forget to get it back. Another problem, every show I went to I worked Danny. We could change it up, but it was the same with everybody. I only saw Samson work Brandon Bishop. Fake Stone Cold work the Fake Rock guy, who was Fake Rock... Only seen Airborne and Freefall work Ace and Mick. Same show, just a different time. It fizzled out quick.
Q: I thought he used good workers. I thought Bishop was a good champion.
PUNK: Bishop is excellent. I miss seeing him. He knew who I was, we'd hang out and we talked. Last time I saw him was an NWA show. Two Bonomo guys, Adrenaline and Mad Midget. Mad Midget was hilarious. The kid's like 5-foot-5. He could do some stuff, but he was always working Adrenaline. Danny went up to Bonomo and asked to work Mad Midget. It would be so funny. He's so big and so tall and this kid is so little. He said he'd put the kid over and the crowd would go crazy. Bonomo didn't want anything to do with it. He had his set thing. He was set in his ways, and now he's extinct.
Q: How does a guy like Chuckie Smooth stumble into that gimmick?
PUNK: He was originally just Chuck Smooth. He did his own thing, feeling out what he wanted to do. Got the idea from Spicolli doing Madonna's boyfriend. It pissed him off, because Spicolli was Madonna's boyfriend, but never did anything with Madonna. He never really played up the gimmick. When Britney Spears hit the scene, a week later he said, "I'm Britney's boyfriend." What he does in Mid America and IWA, it is hilarious. He'll dance with people and they'll get up and move their seat. They're so disgusted. Excellent stuff.
Q: When you went to the Domain, what was the first thing you had to do?
PUNK: Get into better shape. When I went to the Domain, I was probably like 225. I just wanted to show I had the heart and I wanted to do it, so I was working out and I was asking them tips on working out. I was doing whatever was asked of me and I'll always try new things. That's how I got better. Doing leg sweeps and headlock takeovers, over and over again. One time, Kevin Quinn, he had just wrestling Phil LaFon or someone like that. He came back with 18 new ways to armdrag and he went over every single one of them. He made me armdrag every single time until it was perfect, which it never was. I was so sore, I must have done like 6,000 armdrags. Kevin Quinn wanted me to fail, I think. He was pushing me and pushing me, and I agree with this mentality, if you can't take it, don't come back. He said hey, I learned this from Phil LaFon, he put me in the Cobra Clutch and the next thing I know, I'm in the air and he's suplexing me on my head. He was like, how was that, and before I could answer, he'd do it again. I remember the hell getting beat out of me by Kevin Quinn. And I respect him for that. It's the best way to learn in my opinion, because it's the way I learned. I learned a lot quicker than I thought I would have learned otherwise. ... I'm not necessarily saying everyone needs to get dumped on their head, but when Danny and Ace were busy, Quinn would open up. He would show me drills to better my armdrags. He'd show me tricks he learned in Mexico, lucha stuff. ... I'd love for him to see me now. That'd be wild.
Q: When was the last time (Kevin Quinn) saw you?
PUNK: The last time he saw me was when he got called to do the WWF stuff. I haven't seen him since, he's moved to California.
Q: Have you seen Windy City shows?
PUNK: Last one I saw they had Chuckie Smooth, and it was Battle of the Belts. I want to say 2 years ago. Jayson Reign and Vic Capri did a ladder match. That's really the only match I remember.
Q: Did anything Windy City do strike you as special?
PUNK: A lot of it was basic, which was good. It worked. The crowd was eating it alive. The only guys who really ventured out of the basic stuff was Reign and Capri. They did some cool stuff with the ladder. But it was a regular indy show. Greg Valentine was on it.
Q: Reign and Capri are considrered the consensus 1-2 guys in Chicago. Do you agree with that?
PUNK: I think the No. 1 and No. 2 guys in the city - and it's just my opinion - Danny and Ace, then Colt Cabana. I'd put those guys ahead of me any day. Colt Cabana is such a good worker. He's only been in for two years. And he's a big guy, he's like 240, something like that. All muscle. He does all kinds of flips. Does a beautiful tumbleweed legdrop off the top rope. He can do all the high flying stuff. Ace is the best technical wrestler on the indy scene, bar none. Reign and Capri are good for different reasons. I'd like to see them work the crowd more. Every time I've seen them, it's silent. I understand they're doing the Japanese thing like that, but if you ignore the crowd, the crowd will ignore you. A big part of this business is reaction. You could be terrible, but get a good reaction. Look at Road Dogg and Billy Gunn. They weren't the greatest wrestling wise. They had their catchphrases and cliched moves and the crowd went nuts. To be truly successful, you have to connect with the fans, and I think that's something I do well. But yeah, I'm down with Reign and Capri. We had Capri work a Domain show in Joliet. He worked with Cabana and Danny and Ace. Every time I see him, we hang out, we talk. I've got no problems with him. I do think they're excellent workers. If there's anything they can improve on, it's working with the crowd. Everything else is there.
Q: Have you ever been approached at working WWF or WCW?
PUNK: Tail end of WCW, Danny and Ace were going, they did WXO tapings with Johnny Ace. Good friends with Jeremy Borash in Minnesota. He was on TV for a little bit. They were invited out. I was never invited by WCW. I'd like to say, soon. I'm getting a demo tape out, really professional, with music. I've never sent them a tape and that's one of the main reasons I've never gotten called. If they think you have talent, they'll call you. If you have a little bit of talent, they'll look at you. I haven't ever been called, but hopefully soon.
Q: But you know people who know people. And Danny has some connections.
PUNK: Jerry Lynn loves us. He worked Cabana, he worked Ace. He's been bragging to all his friends about how good Ace Steel is. He said he jelled with him so quickly. We're in contact with Jerry Lynn once in a while. He calls and we call him. It's a good contact to have. I'd love to see Danny and Ace go somewhere, because they deserve it. They're excellent.
Q: But your advantage would be your age (he's 22).
PUNK: I agree. I'm still waiting. I still don't think I'm good enough. I'd like to do a dark match to see what they say. The more I wait, the better I get. The better I get, the better chance I have. The more likely it's going to happen. When I do send my stuff in, I'm confident I'll at least get a response.
Q: You said you and Billy Whack were best friends. Would you ever talk with him again?
PUNK: I never talk to him, but I never say never about anything. In my 22 years on this earth, I've learned never to say never. Just the other day a friend of mine from high school I hadn't talked to for four years out of the blue called me. It's not like we had a falling out, we just lost contact. I never say never. It's very unlikely (he and Whack would talk), I'll say that. Me and him don't get along. We don't see eye to eye. We both have the same kind of attitude where it's my way or the highway, and that cause problems in LWF. Who is in charge? Ultimately I didn't care. I looked at it as a backyard federation, and I wanted to get out.
Q: Do you approach (the time in LWF) as something that never happened?
PUNK: Everybody I work for knows about it. It's not something I hide, but I don't say hey, guess what, I was a backyard wrestler. I started at the Domain, I trained at the Domain. That's where I came from. A lot of what kills me, it's fans - and I think it really is fans - posting on my website and other websites, trying to keep the heat alive between me and the LWF. Half of them would just as soon forget about it, just like I would just as soon forget about it. There's probably a few guys over there who harbor some ill will about personal things. But I think the majority of us would just as soon forget about it and move on. Acid, Jensen, Magnificent Mike have no problem with me. You never know. Maybe I'll end up in MCW working them.
Q: Those three have been working other shows and it looks like they may be on their way out.
PUNK: It's no secret. I wish they would all leave. They're not going to go anywhere, and I think Jensen realizes that. Jensen hasn't trashed the LWF, but he told me he's sick of the bullsh**. And it's probably the same bullsh** that's always going on. You've got 8 guys or 6 guys or whatever telling everybody that they own it, which is a lie. Nobody owns the LWF, unless they've done something about it since I left, but that was always a joke. It was never a corporation, it was seven friends.
Q: Is LWF Whack's product? Is it your brother's product?
PUNK: I think now it's Whack's product. I'm sure a lot of guys still have input. The guys I will credit for making the LWF what it was are me, Charkoal, Brian Waz and Billy Whack. Brian Waz would bust his ass and promote the hell out of it. Me and Charkoal ran the business part of it, after my brother took the money. That's where all the heat went down, that's where everything went down. Billy Whack took care of his guys. The Frat Boys took care of their stuff and we came up with our stuff. It was almost like two different feds.
Q: How could your brother continue to work in the company if there was such a problem?
PUNK: He didn't. He was gone. After I left, he came back. A lot of us took it personally. He didn't just take it from me, he took it from everybody who put hard work into the LWF. Which isn't a lot of people. Billy Whack was a cornerstone, he helped out, but we had problems getting guys to show up for practice. Billy Whack, while he was one of the guys who helped out, he was also one of the detrimental things. He wanted his girlfriend involved, got everybody's girlfriend involved. Had friends who wanted to be wrestlers, but never showed up at practice to learn anything. They didn't even work out. Just a bunch of kids he was friends with who wanted to roll around inside a ring in front of a crowd of 500 people, making complete fools out of themselves, making the product look like crap, which wasn't hard to do to begin with.
Q: But a guy like Zenner brings in all that talent and has trouble drawing 400 people. How did LWF get such huge crowds?
PUNK: It blows my mind. I don't know what they're drawing now, but back in the day we had 900 people at shows. It still boggles my mind. I was talking with Eric Priest about it. The place was packed and I do not understand to this day why we had so many people. Because out of six matches on the show, there may have been two good matches. And the rest was just crap, utter crap. A guy like Rick Package, who was a friend of Billy Whack, well just throw him in the ring. The kid's athletic and if he would have been trained, damn it he would have been good. But he never bothered.
Q: But Reign has worked for them and now Airborne works for them. Does that legitimize LWF on any level?
PUNK: I don't think it legitimizes the LWF, if anything it might ... I don't want to say tarnish Airborne and Reign. I don't know. Work is work. I just hope those guys are getting paid. There's no excuse to not pay those guys. I don't think Reign would be stupid enough to work with those guys without getting paid.
Q: Jayson Reign was working out with the LWF, mostly because he says he didn't feel welcome at the Domain. Did you hear about that?
PUNK: Yeah, I talked to him about that. He said Danny never called him back. But Danny was in the midst of some personal trouble with his wife and he wasn't at that phone number anymore and he never got those messages. He came to the Domain one time. I worked out with him. I told him, come back whenever you want, him and Capri. Capri just ran into Ace Steel at a Powerhouse Gym in Arlington Heights. He said whenever you want to come out, come out. We have an open-door policy, like I said. We had Airborne there. We've had PWI guys there.
Q: Are you guys on good terms with the PWI/PCW?
PUNK: I don't even know who runs it anymore. I don't know if Sonny's running it or what? Jimmy Blaze? I don't know. I don't have a problem with any of those guys.
Q: So Sonny and the guys get along with the Domain?
PUNK: Yep. I say Sonny in Wisconsin a couple of months ago and he invited me down. He gave me his number. I respect Sonny for what he's done, the guy's been around 20 years.
Q: If they asked you to be involved in their relaunch show in Melrose Park, would you be interested in something like that?
PUNK: What's the date? (June 23).... I think I'm already booked that day, but yeah, I'd be there. I've got no problems. That may be a misconception. People think I won't work for them, so they don't ask, but yeah, I've got email, I've got a phone. They can email or call me, they know how to get ahold of me. If anybody ever wants to use me, go for it. I'd love to work in Chicago again. I think I'd make a killing selling my T-shirts.
Q: I consider you guys Chicago workers, but you don't work in Chicago and a lot of people don't consider you Chicago workers.
PUNK: Makes sense. Out of sight, out of mind. We are Chicago workers. I was born and raised here. It'd just be nice to work in Chicago again. ... But I like going on the road. I think guys who don't travel are missing out. But in order to travel, you've got to get trained so you've got something to say. If somebody asked these LWF guys who trained you, I don't know what they would say. If they said me, they'd be dead wrong and I would deny it. I don't know who they'd say, but you've got to say somebody. I came from somewhere, oh yeah, heard of that guy. If he says you're good, I'll use you.
Q: So when you're trained, it's better to have someone whose name is recognizable.
PUNK: I've been booked on shows before because somebody asked who trained you and I said Danny Dominion and Ace Steel. They said really, I'd like to use you. That's happened plenty of times.
Q: They seem to name you as one of the top guys they've trained. Does that make you feel special?
PUNK: It makes me feel damn good. Me and Ace were so elated after our ladder match. I got home and wrote him a big email. And I always say this to Ace, after a big match, or I see something disgusting or ridiculous that shouldn't happened if someone is untrained and I say, thanks for training me. He's told me plenty of time, him and Danny, how proud they are of me. And I've come a long way and I'm decent now.
Q: You talk about where you've come from and a lot of talk from LWF is about Acid. Have you worked Acid?
PUNK: One time.
Q: How would you describe that one time?
PUNK: I think it was terrible watching it now. I watch it now and I think Jesus Christ, what the hell am I doing. I wasn't in anywhere near the shape I'm in now. I'm green, which made him 10 times more green than me, and it's just two guys, spot after spot after spot and we tried to memorize. I pride myself now... if I was working Mid South in 1983 and it was heels in one locker room and faces in one locker room I'd be able to walk in the ring without ever talking with my opponent and I'd have a decent match. That's what training does. You learn how to call things in the ring. You learn what makes sense. You learn theory. You learn how to place things in matches, you learn how to hit the big moves when they count. You learn how to turn the ref if you've got a heel manager. If I worked him now, it would be 10 times better and I think it would be a match that would draw money because people would want to see what would happen because of the tension.
Q: If people try to talk about tension with anybody in the LWF, it's always Acid. I know you match up size wise and talent wise, but is it odd that it's always him, yet you've only met in the ring once?
PUNK: No, it makes sense to me, because he's probably the best guy they've got. Everyone recognizes that. I have no problem - Phil Brooks has no problem with Mike Nolan.
Q: You say he should get trained. If he went to the Domain, for instance, what could he become?
PUNK: He could become a f***ing good worker. And he could get hooked up. Me and Cabana have all kinds of connections and we've got connections in Michigan, in Canada, in Kentucky, in Indiana, in Wisconsin. Now with East Coast opening up. There's talks about us going to CZW. It's connections. Connections is how you make it on the indy scene. You get trained, the guys who train you help you out. You network. You talk. A lot of those guys could be good if they would get their heads out of their ass and stop f***ing around with the LWF. I understand, Billy Whack. The LWF probably is always going to be there. I've come to terms with that. But if these guys want to do something with their careers, they have to do what I did. Look what I was doing in the LWF compared to what I'm doing now. I haven't had a weekend off in 8 months.
Q: Is that the way you like it?
PUNK: I love it. I've sacrificed a lot, Al, for doing this. It's probably no secret I've sacrificed my relationship with my girlfriend, which was a f***ing disaster. I'm still friends with her thank God, because she's a really rad person, but I had no time for her, I felt terrible. I've sacrificed going to see my best friend's graduation. I had to work. I've sacrificed seeing my best friends get married. And it's hey, you gonna come to my wedding? No, I'm going to be in Detroit to wrestle. And I feel bad, but I don't, because I know someday it's going to pay off. I like being recognized as the hardest working independent wrestler. Nobody can say they haven't had a week off in 8 months. Nobody can say that. Every weekend, we're somewhere. It's going to be to the point where I can say I haven't had a weekend off in 13 months. I don't want to take a weekend off and I'm booked right now through August. I'm fine up until 8 months into the year and I'm sure I'm always going to be able to find some work somewhere. ... I have a lot of good friends who put up with so much bullshit. ... I want you to print that, my ex-girlfriend, she's still my best friend. She put up with so much crap. And being a girlfriend of a wrestler is like being married to them. You hear stories about hooking up with the rats and all this other stuff. I never dealt with rats and God bless her, she knew that. But it's hard. It's hard on friends, it's hard on family and it's hard on them. There have been little crappy shows I've gone to and I'm thinking why did I come here? I could be doing this, I could be at Great America with all my friends, but no, I've got to come here and this place doesn't have a working toilet, I'm changing in the basement, it's cold and there's 3 inches of water and here I am. It builds character, it makes you a better worker and makes you appreciate when you are in a big locker room and you do have room to change and there's not 26 people crammed into a closet.
Q: Along the same lines, I'm guessing if you work for Vince McMahon and you've got a pay-per-view, you can't really say no.
PUNK: You don't say no to the god of wrestling, you know. You could say no to indy promoters, but it's just going to hold you back. ... you have to do what you have to do to get where you have to be. I'm confident somebody from the Domain is going to make it because Danny and Ace didn't just teach us how to wrestle. They taught us work ethic. They taught us how to handle ourselves inside and outside of the ring, to be professional, how to talk to a promoter, how to say no to a promoter, which is something some guys are afraid to do. If I'm working for a promoter for the first time and he asks me to get color, I'm saying no. I don't care what he does. I say no. If he says he's not going to pay me, that's wrong. I made it to the show, you're paying me. You've got to be able to say no and Danny and Ace taught me so much. Don't be a dickhead, don't bury people. Be sincere. Don't talk shit on the Internet. If you have a problem with somebody, stay away from them. Don't start fights in locker rooms. Mind your own business. Wrestling is a big place. If you're on a show with somebody you don't like, just ignore them. Say hi, shake their hand you don't have to talk to them.
Q: I noticed Danny's post on my message board.
PUNK: It was brilliant. ... Danny doesn't have a computer. He was probably at Ace's. I think he checks stuff out once a month and he saw some stuff and it was like damn it. He gave everybody a free lesson that day. Everybody should pay him 50 bucks or something like that. He just went off. He was like what is this? If you don't like the guy, ignore him.