Post by CW on Nov 14, 2018 19:55:44 GMT -6
Billy Whack Interview - July 2001
An interview with the LWF's Billy Whack. On a hot night in the building that is the Bump Factory in Mokena.
AL: What do you have going on? It sounds like you're trying to elevate LWF to another level. What specifically are you trying to do?
WHACK: You read my posts. We were getting knocked about the backyard thing and we're trying to dispell all that nonsense. The training center is the final piece. We have the characters. We have the show. All we need is the training and the guys are coming forward and taking it more seriously, and we're making them a part of the training camp. Whether they're trainers or helping out. It gives us the air of legitimacy that apparently we need. Whatever.
AL: I'm not sure the fan sitting in the crowd really cares, but it's important to some of the guys.
WHACK: For a lot of the guys who work here, being respected is an important thing, understandably. I wouldn't want to deny them that. And I wouldn't want to deny guys coming in. I wouldn't want them to have the stigma of backyard or untrained. We didn't have to, but now we want to do it. When we started this, we didn't know the handshakes. I didn't know. I wanted to put on a show, and I wanted people to be entertained, and we got knocked for it. But if this is the last piece for what we need, so be it.
AL: When you first started doing these shows and you weren't doing it right, you were drawing 900 people. Some who do things the way you've talked about sometimes struggle to draw. Are you afraid you're going to lose your crowd?
WHACK: They are separate things. We have the workers and the trainers and the wrestlers. The ideas and concept still come from me. We've had the big screen, we finally started utilizing it. We've had skits. We had one with Mimic, where he was talking about how he wants to have a coronation and he actually suggested you coronating him. We did a couple skits introducing a security guy who is ready to go and we want to bring him up. I've always wanted to do that. I've wanted to do it right when the WWF got the screen. I'm like, why not have backstage skits, stories, interviews. When I was a kid, all I ever did was carry my camcorder around and film things. I still do it on our shows. But now I'll film something, and it'll go up there.
AL: I heard your attendance fell by one from someone who wasn't there, and I heard you called attention to it. (Whack mentioned the absence of Midwest Championship Wrestling owner Brian Zenner, who had attended the past few LWF shows):
WHACK: I noticed there was an empty seat, and it's the same seat he always seems to sit in. He doesn't know this. He'll know this now. There was one show I watched him. We have the lights and the lights are really bright. I met him once, so I kind of remembered what he looked like. But believe it or not, I didn't really know what he looked like. Someone said he looked like Billy Joel. I didn't expect to see Billy Joel in the audience. I saw him, and the way I was standing cast a shadow on him. So I'd move back and the light went in his eyes, then I'd move forward. I'd keep moving back and forth, and he had to be getting annoyed. Which was hard for him when he's taking notes and stuff. All we're trying to do is run a good show, good people. Everyone's attendance is down. We just want to survive and hopefully, we'll hit something. Some people have the right idea. Some people have enough money. Some people have enough heart and drive. Some people have the right look, but nothing else. I just want to get all of those people on one page, in one company. Certain guys don't want to hear it, but I would bring back lots of our past people. Everyone has gone their separate ways, they've grown up a little. It's time to bring it back home. Let's plant the LWF flag in Chicago. Let's do it. We're in a city with 3 1/2 million people. You draw 240 here. 300 here. 120 here. Why doesn't everybody get on the same page? Am I that much of a jerk? Billy Whack has ideas, but he's a crazy man. But we just kept going on and trying to change things and update things and make it better. I'd like to get all the superstars on one page.
AL: The crowds are down. Maybe PCW drew more than 500, but for the most part crowds are down. Even the WWF is losing its crowds. How can you change that?
WHACK: Something has to happen that will shock people and suddenty they'll say, remember that thing we used to go to? You mean WWF? No, that LWF, or that PCW, or that Windy City or that MCW. Well, there's one big company now and they're doing everything. It's like a mini-WWF. I heard about the PCW show, and I thought 'My God, that's got to be Paul Myers who did that.' And I was concerned that Paul .. I've spoken to Paul... I was concerned he suddenly has become this great PR guy, but was the show good enough for his promotion? Will those people be back? I don't know. ... I know we've got a good, solid product. I know we have good ideas, good concepts. I would like to get everyone on the same page.
AL: I know you're bringing in Airborne and Brandon Bishop (for training and assistance) and they are two respected members of the Chicago scene.
WHACK: That's what we need. Both of them are real good guys.
AL: Are you looking to (Airborne) to bring some legitimacy?
WHACK: I don't doubt his way of training is probably good. But suddenly, who am I trying to impress? Is it your average guy on the street who wants to be a wrestler? That guy's Airborne. We're finding out a lot of our critics, especially on chicagowrestling.com, they're workers. They're guys in the business.
AL: What they bring up, what they've got on you, is you're not trained.
WHACK: That's all they've got. What happens when everyone is trained? What will they say then? I'm not even hearing the we're not trained stuff that much anymore.
AL: You've talked about getting everyone on the same page. What would it for an MCW show to begin, for your music to hit, and for you to come out carrying your cam?
WHACK: From what I hear, Zenner doesn't subscribe to the same theories of show personality, of character. I don't know that he has that. He'll front the money, he has a booker. It's not a team effort. Here, it's a family. If I'm mad at Havok, he's still like a brother to me. I don't know if Zenner has the same working relationship with his guys.
AL: You and your guys can trace your roots back to the same place.
WHACK: We came from the same place, we saw the same things, we were disgusted by the same things, we pretty much like the same things. If some of the guys get into the Japanese style, I'll check it out. It's not my thing. If the workers want to learn more moves, that's for them. If you hear me on commentary, I don't know what I'm talking about. I am the worst commentator in the world. I'm a jerk. I make some jokes. I try to explain the characters and some storylines. We need a guy like Major Tom to call the moves, and unfortunately Tom has been really sick the last couple of weeks.
AL: Windy City has a wrestling guy, Sam DeCero. PCW has one of Sam's old guys, Sonny Rogers. Zenner, I'm pretty sure, is a wrestling fan. In your case, you're just a bunch of guys who got together and started a fed.
WHACK: The difference between Zenner and myself. I was honestly born into the whole storytelling, character making. I love my action figures. I love the Star Wars movies and the Back to the Future movies. I'm a kid. I'm a 27-year-old kid. He's not. I don't know if he's looking at making money, or just putting on a show. I don't know what he's looking for. He's looking for a lot of my guys, I know that. And in the "olden days" of "wrestling" where they do the handshake, and respect and stuff, one promoter would call another promoter and say hey, can I borrow some of your guys. I don't subscribe to the old-school theory, and apparently he's never heard of it either. So that's where we are. When he gets my guys, can he use them? I don't think so. It's a common complaint I've heard from the workers and the fans. They've got great wrestling. And I won't deny that. Low-Ki is one of the most phenominal guys I've ever seen. Seriously. Acid, Double M, Jay Jensen are good workers. Character-wise, I can do something for them here, but I'd want to make sure if Acid is a character here, I wouldn't want everything I've put into Acid and making a character out of him, to be used over there, for someone else to make money. We charge 10 American dollars. It's not 14. It's not 18. It's not $25 for the front row, and you get to keep your chair or anything corny like that. Ten bucks gets you in. Take a look at what gets you in. Our training camp, $1,000, not $3,500, come in, take a look. Want to be a wrestler, we'll try to train you. I'm not out to cut anybody's throat. I'm out to keep what's mine. And if I can keep it, I will use it and push it to its fullest, and if I can't I'll have to cut ties. That's all I can do. I can make more. It's crappy, because I'm friends with those guys. They want to go out, spread their wings. Zenner is the perfect opportunity. He might be throwing some money at them. What can I do?
AL: When he was first starting to take LWF guys, the talk was Zenner pays, LWF doesn't pay. Now it seems like you're starting to pay.
WHACK: Attendance is low, but we're generating some money from the training camp. Hopefully the guys will get more excited, they'll start handing out fliers, start promoting. Maybe they'll go to their local pizza place, "Hey, I'm wrestling." It's more people, more money. More pay. It's a circle. I think we've come full circle. This is what I've always wanted to do, since I was a small youth growing up on the mean streets of Mokena. Nonetheless, I think we have the best shot at it.
AL: What about TV? Windy City has cable access. Zenner is going to have a broadcast TV deal. What about you?
WHACK: Talking with our TV guys, Railthree, that's our production company. We have enough footage, and it's constantly being edited. We really want to find a slot, and maybe in the beginning of September, trying to get something out there. I'm not a promoter blowing smoke. That's what we really want to try to do. We're shooting for September. We don't know anything about a station yet. I want the show to have a certain look, and I want to have a whole bunch of shows under our belt before anything is even aired. It's definitely a possibility. ... whether it's a Brandon Bishop helping us out, or Airborne helping us train, or PL Myers promoting. Getting all the super powers of Chicago wrestling on one page. Chicago was supposed to have ECW. Chicago should have something. Chicago's got to be the next big city. There is so much talent here. I don't hear anything about the New York indy scene. I hear about Minnesota and California, but Chicago is a total hotbed, not just with the talent, not just with the promotions, but the fans. The fans are rabid for something quality.
AL: There is WWF and nothing. There seems to be some room and you could use some promotion. You say you've talked to Paul (Myers), does he seem receptive to helping you?
WHACK: Paul is doing what he's doing. I don't know. He's taking care of his own business. You've got Jayson Reign. Vic Capri. These guys are incredible workers. It's not even getting on the same page. Let's just get them in the same book. As far as Zenner, what would it take for me to come busting out on one of his shows? I would have to be sure he would want to be going in the direction I want to go. I would want to be sure my character would be used. I'd want to have say-so. I'd want to do the booking. I'd want that screen. I'd want to film and do the skits. Basically, I'd want it to be the LWF. If Zenner wanted to be our investor, all right.
AL: It would seem to make more sense for you to grab the mic at an MCW show than for Zenner to do it at one of your shows.
WHACK: Would it make more sense? Do you think? I would make his show look all right. I'm sure that's a bit of ego. I know what I want to do. I know it would be cool.
AL: Even if he comes out at your shows with his guys, it's real life. There is real-life drama there. He has used your guys, and you're not thrilled about it.
WHACK: We've used his guys, too. But it was never malicious. He took Grudge, changed his name, made him look stupid. He put a hat on him. Wait a minute, isn't that Grudge? No, he's wearing a hat. Is that Synn? No, that's Michael Synn. He's different. No he's not, he's the same guy that's been trained here that every Tuesday comes up and says what are you going to do with me? Well, we'll do this with you, that with you. He's a guy totally new to the whole business, Synn. Then you've got Zenner, hey I've got some money. You look really good. Here, want to wrestle for me? And suddenly Synn is a superstar.Hey, we try to do everything we can for these guys. Give them this, give them that. There's a method to this. I'm certainly not throwing money at the guys and saying you're from there, and we're going to put you here and we're going to make you wear a hat. It's embarrassing. It should be embarrassing. If Brian Zenner had looked through wrestling history books, he would know he is making an embarrassing mistake. He will slowly be burning bridges. He has got to be burning his checkbook. Do the math. That's just him. He has a different opinion, comes from a completely different background. I was born to do this. I grew up in the back of a car with my parents carting me - they had a boat - out to the marina and I'd sit there with my comic books and action figures, and video games and wrestling. Then I started to tie it all together. This guy should do this. And this guy should look like that. And this should be his music, because here he comes. Doesn't anyone else care?
AL: Is your frustration directed at Zenner for bringing them in, or for the guys for going over there?
WHACK: I don't fault the guys for going over there. They want to see what it's all about. They have lived in this LWF biodome. Hey, do what you want to do. But when you go over and see how their characters are getting handled, I'm getting a lot of phone calls from a lot of guys who want to come back, or come over for the first time. I would handle them properly. I would take time. I care what color wristbands the guy has when he's coming out. I care that he comes out 10 steps ahead, and his valet comes out cowering behind him. Every single aspect of the appearance, I care about. Don't you want every cylinder firing right? Don't you want everything in the storyline to be perfect? And everything they say to make sense and mean something. At one of their shows, guys came out face, then they turned heel, and at the end of the night, they were face. That's an insult to the business and an embarrassment to what we're trying to do. For one show? Have a little consistency.
AL: You've brought in guys he uses, Jayson Reign and Airborne. What drew them to the LWF? It's not for the money, right?
WHACK: You know what it is? We don't subscribe to the old theories. We want to do right to everybody. You hear some guys saying, "I'll never work for Sam again" And this guy pissed me off and Zenner's going crazy, or Mike Bonomo just copied everything the WWF did. That list goes on. There is certainly enough crap about me. I've got a list of enemies longer than Ron Jeremy. I want to fix all that. I want everybody to be back. Yes, everybody.
AL: Well, you say everybody. We could start with a guy, I'm sure you saw the 6-part interview with CM Punk. ... The legitimacy thing is very important to him. Was a guy like him in mind when you're bringing in a guy like Airborne or Brandon to train, since they'd add that legitimacy?
WHACK: Yes. I think. Are you asking me if I'd bring back CM Punk?
AL: Yes.
WHACK: There's a lot of issues. If I were to get in a fight with Havok, it's still family. They are family issues. It's not just myself. It's Broox. They're brothers. I am slowly becoming a businessman. There were things that happened on both sides. Yeah, I would take him back. Phil Brooks was like a brother. CM Punk was a character, maybe it took over Phil Brooks. Regardless, I would take them both back.
AL: You mean the man and his character?
WHACK: Yes, the man and his character.
AL: There are a lot of people who have left. Anyone who leaves anywhere, it seems obligatory to say something bad about the guy you've just left. I haven't heard that yet with Brawn or Venom. What would stand in the way of anyone coming back?
WHACK: Maybe they feel they weren't getting enough out of here. Maybe they figured they'd just check back with us later. I'm open to anything. Right now, I just want to plant the flag.
AL: Would the sort of thing that would prevent the planting of the flag be personal issues?
WHACK: I don't have personal issues. If anyone had a personal issue with the LWF, it always ended up directed at me. And I really don't want personal issues. Maybe they said in another time, or another place, it could have worked out. Well now, I want to turn back the clock and make it that time and place.
AL: There has been much ado about Brawn, maybe he just got tired of wrestling. Maybe he didn't have the input he used to have. Was there any bad blood?
WHACK: I don't think there's bad blood. I don't know if he wanted to do wrestling. I just think he thought it was his time to move on and do something else.
AL: There never was much doubt about where the creative planning and thinking came from, but now there can be even less doubt. There was Brawn, there was Billy Whack. But now there can be no question. This is your show.
WHACK: I don't know if he'd go along with it. He'd have very valid reasons why it might not work, but now I'm looking at it as a businessman and I want to get all the talent together. A lot of the ideas is me, but some of it is a hodgepodge. I can't take credit with everything. With Brawn and Venom, ideas bounced off all of us.
AL: You say you don't want any personal issues, but who is your enemy? Who is stopping you from planting your flag? Is there a person? What is stopping you?
WHACK: I can't think of anybody who is really giving me a problem. Especially now. I am really on cloud 9. Things are looking up and getting better and better and better. If anybody wants to be a part of the LWF, now is the time. Anyone who wants to interfere with that, that would have to be my enemy. Lead, follow, or get the hell out of my way. And if that means Brian Zenner, whatever's going to happen is going to happen. I'm focused on staying in this lane and if cars are passing or getting in my way, I'll try to get around them. I don't think anyone is an enemy, a driving force, total competition. We're just doing our thing.
AL: Guys like Acid, Jay Jensen and Double M have worked at MCW as well as LWF. In the future, is that a problem for you?
WHACK: The way I look at it, if we're all countries and we all have our nuclear weapons ready, nobody's really ready to fire on each other. I have a lot ideas, a lot of character things, a lot of angles and a lot of good gimmick switches and changes, for all of those guys. I have stuff for Double M, for Acid for Jensen. I would like them to stay here, and if they stay here, then we can proceed. We could go forward. We've come out with the Hot-Potato Belt and the Cell Block Match and we've brought the Shopping Cart match to a cool level. We can do the same for those characters. They're good characters. They're good workers. Let me handle that stuff. If they'll let me, I'll take it as far as we could possibly get with it. If they want to work with Zenner, I can't promise they'd get the same treatment. I would guarantee they wouldn't. We've put a lot into the characters. Character is everything.
AL: In using the Airborne character, is that a different story? He was with Zenner first. And how do you think (Zenner) views it? I'm sure he's not thrilled.
WHACK: There are things we could do with Airborne. When I get a commitment from these certain guys, then we could move forward. As for right now, I have no choice but to make them spot workers. We need a great match. You could put on that great match. But afterwards, you're not going to be attacked from a guy from your past. You're not going to get burned in the face and have to wear a mask. They''ll just be spot workers. And they're good at it. They're the best. If Zenner hadn't plucked them away, they wouldn't be superstars right now. If we hadn't pushed them, and Jensen wasn't the champion, and Acid wasn't the champion, and Double M wasn't the champion, maybe, just maybe, Zenner wouldn't have said, 'Those guys seem to be the power players over there. I'll take them.' We made them names. Zenner made them outsiders, like Kevin Nash and Scott Hall. Diesel and Razor Ramon, toward the end, they were still popular in WWF, but when they showed up on Nitro, that's when the whole war started. And what happened? Ted Turner didn't know how to use them. And it came back to the homegrown product, the WWF. And they knew how to do it. They just plodded right along. Where's Scott Hall? Where's Kevin Nash? Sure, they've made a lot of money, but if wrestling is in their heart, they would have stayed with the company that could have done the best for them.
AL: You feel, in this case, that is your company.
WHACK: Yes and no. They wanted to try that, more power to them. Maybe they've had a taste and they've come to the same realization that I have. Maybe things aren't so great over there. They get to work with ECW guys. Zenner will bring in ECW guys. Maybe it's cool for them to work in the locker room with them. That's like a resume. I worked with Chris Chetti, I worked with the FBI. OK, but what did you do on that show? What did they do for you on that show? How was your character on that show? Did they put you over? Or were you the curtain jerker? I saw Double M and Jensen - two of our former champions - at the one MCW show I went to, they were the opening match. I have to wonder if that was - 'Put them in the first match. And put a hat on Grudge.' You know what I mean.
AL: That bothers you. Putting a hat on Grudge bothers you, doesn't it? And calling him Steven Anthony bothers you, too.
WHACK: To me, it was a cheap attempt. We've got to make him different. He's the champion. That was embarrassing. It might have been embarrassing to Grudge. It wasn't embarrassing to me, but I thought Zenner should have been ashamed of himself. But if he doesn't care, if he just wants to make money, God bless him, I hope he did make money. I don't think he did off of Steven Anthony, but we've still got Grudge and we're putting him in our main event with our world title.
AL: You say right now is the time to get on LWF's bandwagon. What is it that would cause you to say this is why you should pick LWF?
WHACK: We care about the character. We take a look at the ability, we'll put him at the top. I think we have a pretty good sense of booking. I think this is going to be where things are happening. Jimmy Strons worked one show for us, and John Spahn plucked him out and do WWF. Missy and Michelle, two of our former valets, went out as the Godfather's hos, in WWF. Jensen and Acid and Double M all had ECW tryouts. I don't know that PCW or MCW so much or even Windy City would push for those guys. You get noticed here. There is a lot of history in that ring, a lot of history in this bump factory. Characters are made, and things happen.
AL: So it's nothing that changed then?
WHACK: It's our motto, our credo. We care. That's too cheesy of a slogan to have on our T-shirts, but that's what happens here, behind the scenes. Our referee comes out to entrance music. Our ring girl is the world's most dangerous ring girl. Everybody has a tag line. Everybody, even if they didn't do much on the show, they know I did this tonight. If people didn't know about them, and they weren't characters, then maybe Zenner wouldn't be approaching them, at our own god damn shows. Sitting in the audience. I've heard people have asked him, 'What'd you think of the show,' and he's like, 'Well, the show sucked.' Wow. Are you kidding me? I'm not saying our show is meant to blow you away, but our show is a show. It's $10. If you're going to spend $7.50 to go see a movie, why not spend $10 and see a live action athletic contest with a big screen and characters. It's like a play. And until people start realizing that and stop watching the rankings.
AL: Your guys are the ones watching (our rankings) the most.
WHACK: I know. They're concerned about it. But we write the stories, they're the performers. We take care of them.
AL: I've seen you at one of Zenner's shows.
WHACK: I love Low-Ki, that's all I'm going to say. They're not a family. They're a bunch of mercenaries, thrown together to wrestle, and they're all good at what they do, and they're the best. There's no doubt about it. He picks the best "wrestlers." I didn't understand some of the stuff they had going on. I couldn't hear their PA. For a guy with a lot of money, you'd figure he could have gotten a better PA system. With all that money, you'd think he'd have better production. We're scraping by and I think we do good. We have no money, but we care so god damn money. We have the screen. It's like, don't forget the table, because LPJ needs his comfort zone at the show. Chef Dementia, what are you going to be cooking up to serve to the fans? We have a guy in a chef outfit who is cooking up food and serving it to the fans. And a referee that comes out to his own music. I'm singing kereoke before the shows. I've got Arby's in my back pocket and I'm throwing it to the fans.We're playing the Grand Prize Game in the middle of the ring. It's entertainment. And if it never makes it to TV, come see it live. There's stuff happening live. We're coming up with new characters, and maybe the next one's going to be creepier or weirder. Guys are happy. There's a guy happy just being a chef. Everyone's happy here. When I went to MCW, they looked like a bunch of guys who were wrestling. And it is a wrestling show. I'll probably get knocked for trying to push the entertainment value, but I think that's what'll put asses in the seats. How was the wrestling? Well, it was good, but they had this guy come out and he... whatever. You know.
AL: Much has been made to what brought your shows to the 900 draw to where 400 is a good draw. You had the split. What happened at that point, and how do you get back to where you were drawing 900?
WHACK: I must be stupid. After the split, attendance was down, and it's never come back up. I don't understand. I don't know. I really don't know. We even brought back the guys, Mimic, Tyler Cross, Havok, Botch. Our big relaunch bringing those guys back, we were doing shows at Bourbon Street on Sunday afternoon. It was a bar. Maybe we picked the wrong dates. Maybe people started to find other things to do, which kind of bothers me. We have to get more radical, maybe it was a lack of fliers. We haven't been putting as many fliers. You put on a flier, Shopping Cart match, or Cage match. Or Lumberjack match. All the names and the logos. Take a look at this. We've been running TV commercials. Someone will be reading this and say, "Well the problem was, blah, blah, blah." I don't know.
AL: What do you think the fan is looking for? This happened before Brian Zenner. Brian Zenner isn't ruining Chicago wrestling. Or is it?
WHACK: There are so many different types of fans. There are guys who are strictly into the technical wrestling. There are people who might watch WWF and like the characters. Maybe you get young girls who like to come out and look at Maverick. Right now, what is drawing? I don't know, that's why we'll have something for everyone. I'm pretty sure in a city of more than 3 million people, we can get our numbers to where they were before.
AL: Do you like the venues you run now? Are the venues part of the problem?
WHACK: I like Midlothian. It's small, and we've configured it to the way we want it with the screen. We're not doing too bad. It's not great.
AL: Is it unfair to measure you against yourself from before?
WHACK: We do that all the time. It was like, Jesus, look at all those people. And they knew everything. And all the characters. They caught all the jokes. I just don't know.
AL: They weren't the same people going to Windy City shows. Those were LWF fans. Have they gone to MCW?
WHACK: They must like the wrestling, maybe they caught the radio commercial and didn't hear ours. Maybe there's so much going on. It's got to be oversaturation. People have to make a decision. When we're running 5 shows back to back to back, you'd have to get a monthly membership to be an LWF fan. Here's your $40 to get into all shows, or maybe for $35, you could get a monthly pass. We should space out or shows. Take some time and promote them like it's an event. I'm giving away battle secrets.
WHACK: Let me ask you a question. Where were you Saturday?
AL: MCW. I committed to it. They had the concept of a tag tournament months ago, and I said I would go. I do enjoy the entertainment of your shows. But when there is an LWF show and a Windy City show, or an MCW show and an LWF show... there aren't all that many fans going to the shows to start with. You're going to break them. Ten dollars might not break them, but $40 will. There are a lot of shows. You've suggested working with other people.
WHACK: Why don't you like me? Everyone in Chicago, why don't you like me. Especially guys who have never heard of me.
AL: You seem to have a hatred for Brian Zenner.
WHACK: It's not a hatred. At first, there were a couple nights I was up all nights, I was like, "What is going on?" We had just lost an investor. We talked about that way back. Everybody said to me, don't worry about it, that guy was a money mark, a mark for himself. Then, poof, MCW. Then I was wondering, hey, that investor guy we lost. He's not behind that, is he? (Zenner) was a guy trying to drive us down. The guys we had working there were like, "No, he's not trying to put you out of business." Bullshit. I want to put on a wrestling show. Now, maybe possibly guys are starting to see things are a little different, and maybe this will be the place. I don't hate Brian Zenner. I think the whole situation is laughable, and I'm embarrassed I was worried about it. If you give somebody enough rope, he'll hang himself, if he doesn't know what he's doing.
AL: You would work with Brian Zenner?
WHACK: He would have to work with me. I have the ideas. And he has the money. If he wants to make more money and be part of a quality wrestling show, work with us. I will not show up on an MCW show. He can work with us, not work for us. Even at that, I'd have to meet him and talk to him. The first time I met him, I'd gone to that MCW show. I was starstruck. I met Vince McMahon. I've met Shane McMahon. But when I saw Low-Ki, he made me excited about wrestling again. I saw his kicks, and I went up to Airborne and I asked, "Dude, are you all right?" And he was like, I'm fine (Whack holds his side and limps). I was intimidated. The show had ended and some of our guys had put LWF fliers on cars in the parking lot. I swear on Boy Scout honor, even though I'm not a Boy Scout, I didn't know. We found out Zenner was all mad about it. He told one of my guys, you tell Whack if he pulls that again, he'll have more than just me to deal with. I thought, holy smokes, I better stop this situation. I asked, who is Brian Zenner, I wanted to talk to him. I went up and I had my hand out, I was like, I'm really sorry. He looked me up and down and said, I'd never disrespect your show. I went up to apologize. I was thinking, OK, he's pissed, I understand. I went to shake his hand. He looked at my hand and he slowly put his hand out and begrudginginly shook my hand. I didn't want any heat. I walked away and I said to the guy I was with, I don't think he thought I was sincere. And the farther away I got, the more I start to think. Never disrespect his show? Our entire roster came out to watch his show. To support the show, and the guys who didn't pay to get in worked the show. Without any "Hey Billy Whack, can I use some of your guys?" None of that. I can't believe I just shook this man's hand. He may as well just have slapped me in the face. Now I look at what he's doing and think, "You give him enough rope, he'll hang himself." That's how I feel. I'm a jerk, but I think I'm a good jerk. I'm not an evil guy.
AL: Your shows aren't the normal shows, even by WWF/ECW standards. You might not have space aliens like you used to. It's not necessarily wrestling based. You've said his shows aren't entertaining.
WHACK: They are entertaining, for wrestling fans. It's the best wrestling there is. Jayson Reign, Vic Capri, and our guys. That's good wrestling. Airborne. Low-Ki. That's good stuff, but that's not our stuff.
AL: Let's say a guy like Low-Ki came to your show.
WHACK: I don't know where we'd put him.
AL: You found a place for New Jack.
WHACK: I've never met Low-Ki, we'd find a place for him. For christ sake, we've got a place for you.
AL: You're not just looking for the guy who can wrestle best, it's more the character. Would you say that's a fair assessment?
WHACK: Yes. But I'd like to get a good 50/50 going.
AL: At one time, it was hardcore blood and guts. Do you still appeal to that fan? Or now that a guy like Brawn isn't around anymore, can you still give that fan what he wants?
WHACK: That shopping cart match he did was fantastic. It gave us an adernaline burst that we needed. It's geting harder and harder in this age of "wrestlers." Put that in quotatations. They don't want to do that. It's a Catch-22, those kinds of matches bring people to shows, but the guys don't want to do them. We're kind of stuck. If we can find guys to do those things, we'll have everything.
An interview with the LWF's Billy Whack. On a hot night in the building that is the Bump Factory in Mokena.
AL: What do you have going on? It sounds like you're trying to elevate LWF to another level. What specifically are you trying to do?
WHACK: You read my posts. We were getting knocked about the backyard thing and we're trying to dispell all that nonsense. The training center is the final piece. We have the characters. We have the show. All we need is the training and the guys are coming forward and taking it more seriously, and we're making them a part of the training camp. Whether they're trainers or helping out. It gives us the air of legitimacy that apparently we need. Whatever.
AL: I'm not sure the fan sitting in the crowd really cares, but it's important to some of the guys.
WHACK: For a lot of the guys who work here, being respected is an important thing, understandably. I wouldn't want to deny them that. And I wouldn't want to deny guys coming in. I wouldn't want them to have the stigma of backyard or untrained. We didn't have to, but now we want to do it. When we started this, we didn't know the handshakes. I didn't know. I wanted to put on a show, and I wanted people to be entertained, and we got knocked for it. But if this is the last piece for what we need, so be it.
AL: When you first started doing these shows and you weren't doing it right, you were drawing 900 people. Some who do things the way you've talked about sometimes struggle to draw. Are you afraid you're going to lose your crowd?
WHACK: They are separate things. We have the workers and the trainers and the wrestlers. The ideas and concept still come from me. We've had the big screen, we finally started utilizing it. We've had skits. We had one with Mimic, where he was talking about how he wants to have a coronation and he actually suggested you coronating him. We did a couple skits introducing a security guy who is ready to go and we want to bring him up. I've always wanted to do that. I've wanted to do it right when the WWF got the screen. I'm like, why not have backstage skits, stories, interviews. When I was a kid, all I ever did was carry my camcorder around and film things. I still do it on our shows. But now I'll film something, and it'll go up there.
AL: I heard your attendance fell by one from someone who wasn't there, and I heard you called attention to it. (Whack mentioned the absence of Midwest Championship Wrestling owner Brian Zenner, who had attended the past few LWF shows):
WHACK: I noticed there was an empty seat, and it's the same seat he always seems to sit in. He doesn't know this. He'll know this now. There was one show I watched him. We have the lights and the lights are really bright. I met him once, so I kind of remembered what he looked like. But believe it or not, I didn't really know what he looked like. Someone said he looked like Billy Joel. I didn't expect to see Billy Joel in the audience. I saw him, and the way I was standing cast a shadow on him. So I'd move back and the light went in his eyes, then I'd move forward. I'd keep moving back and forth, and he had to be getting annoyed. Which was hard for him when he's taking notes and stuff. All we're trying to do is run a good show, good people. Everyone's attendance is down. We just want to survive and hopefully, we'll hit something. Some people have the right idea. Some people have enough money. Some people have enough heart and drive. Some people have the right look, but nothing else. I just want to get all of those people on one page, in one company. Certain guys don't want to hear it, but I would bring back lots of our past people. Everyone has gone their separate ways, they've grown up a little. It's time to bring it back home. Let's plant the LWF flag in Chicago. Let's do it. We're in a city with 3 1/2 million people. You draw 240 here. 300 here. 120 here. Why doesn't everybody get on the same page? Am I that much of a jerk? Billy Whack has ideas, but he's a crazy man. But we just kept going on and trying to change things and update things and make it better. I'd like to get all the superstars on one page.
AL: The crowds are down. Maybe PCW drew more than 500, but for the most part crowds are down. Even the WWF is losing its crowds. How can you change that?
WHACK: Something has to happen that will shock people and suddenty they'll say, remember that thing we used to go to? You mean WWF? No, that LWF, or that PCW, or that Windy City or that MCW. Well, there's one big company now and they're doing everything. It's like a mini-WWF. I heard about the PCW show, and I thought 'My God, that's got to be Paul Myers who did that.' And I was concerned that Paul .. I've spoken to Paul... I was concerned he suddenly has become this great PR guy, but was the show good enough for his promotion? Will those people be back? I don't know. ... I know we've got a good, solid product. I know we have good ideas, good concepts. I would like to get everyone on the same page.
AL: I know you're bringing in Airborne and Brandon Bishop (for training and assistance) and they are two respected members of the Chicago scene.
WHACK: That's what we need. Both of them are real good guys.
AL: Are you looking to (Airborne) to bring some legitimacy?
WHACK: I don't doubt his way of training is probably good. But suddenly, who am I trying to impress? Is it your average guy on the street who wants to be a wrestler? That guy's Airborne. We're finding out a lot of our critics, especially on chicagowrestling.com, they're workers. They're guys in the business.
AL: What they bring up, what they've got on you, is you're not trained.
WHACK: That's all they've got. What happens when everyone is trained? What will they say then? I'm not even hearing the we're not trained stuff that much anymore.
AL: You've talked about getting everyone on the same page. What would it for an MCW show to begin, for your music to hit, and for you to come out carrying your cam?
WHACK: From what I hear, Zenner doesn't subscribe to the same theories of show personality, of character. I don't know that he has that. He'll front the money, he has a booker. It's not a team effort. Here, it's a family. If I'm mad at Havok, he's still like a brother to me. I don't know if Zenner has the same working relationship with his guys.
AL: You and your guys can trace your roots back to the same place.
WHACK: We came from the same place, we saw the same things, we were disgusted by the same things, we pretty much like the same things. If some of the guys get into the Japanese style, I'll check it out. It's not my thing. If the workers want to learn more moves, that's for them. If you hear me on commentary, I don't know what I'm talking about. I am the worst commentator in the world. I'm a jerk. I make some jokes. I try to explain the characters and some storylines. We need a guy like Major Tom to call the moves, and unfortunately Tom has been really sick the last couple of weeks.
AL: Windy City has a wrestling guy, Sam DeCero. PCW has one of Sam's old guys, Sonny Rogers. Zenner, I'm pretty sure, is a wrestling fan. In your case, you're just a bunch of guys who got together and started a fed.
WHACK: The difference between Zenner and myself. I was honestly born into the whole storytelling, character making. I love my action figures. I love the Star Wars movies and the Back to the Future movies. I'm a kid. I'm a 27-year-old kid. He's not. I don't know if he's looking at making money, or just putting on a show. I don't know what he's looking for. He's looking for a lot of my guys, I know that. And in the "olden days" of "wrestling" where they do the handshake, and respect and stuff, one promoter would call another promoter and say hey, can I borrow some of your guys. I don't subscribe to the old-school theory, and apparently he's never heard of it either. So that's where we are. When he gets my guys, can he use them? I don't think so. It's a common complaint I've heard from the workers and the fans. They've got great wrestling. And I won't deny that. Low-Ki is one of the most phenominal guys I've ever seen. Seriously. Acid, Double M, Jay Jensen are good workers. Character-wise, I can do something for them here, but I'd want to make sure if Acid is a character here, I wouldn't want everything I've put into Acid and making a character out of him, to be used over there, for someone else to make money. We charge 10 American dollars. It's not 14. It's not 18. It's not $25 for the front row, and you get to keep your chair or anything corny like that. Ten bucks gets you in. Take a look at what gets you in. Our training camp, $1,000, not $3,500, come in, take a look. Want to be a wrestler, we'll try to train you. I'm not out to cut anybody's throat. I'm out to keep what's mine. And if I can keep it, I will use it and push it to its fullest, and if I can't I'll have to cut ties. That's all I can do. I can make more. It's crappy, because I'm friends with those guys. They want to go out, spread their wings. Zenner is the perfect opportunity. He might be throwing some money at them. What can I do?
AL: When he was first starting to take LWF guys, the talk was Zenner pays, LWF doesn't pay. Now it seems like you're starting to pay.
WHACK: Attendance is low, but we're generating some money from the training camp. Hopefully the guys will get more excited, they'll start handing out fliers, start promoting. Maybe they'll go to their local pizza place, "Hey, I'm wrestling." It's more people, more money. More pay. It's a circle. I think we've come full circle. This is what I've always wanted to do, since I was a small youth growing up on the mean streets of Mokena. Nonetheless, I think we have the best shot at it.
AL: What about TV? Windy City has cable access. Zenner is going to have a broadcast TV deal. What about you?
WHACK: Talking with our TV guys, Railthree, that's our production company. We have enough footage, and it's constantly being edited. We really want to find a slot, and maybe in the beginning of September, trying to get something out there. I'm not a promoter blowing smoke. That's what we really want to try to do. We're shooting for September. We don't know anything about a station yet. I want the show to have a certain look, and I want to have a whole bunch of shows under our belt before anything is even aired. It's definitely a possibility. ... whether it's a Brandon Bishop helping us out, or Airborne helping us train, or PL Myers promoting. Getting all the super powers of Chicago wrestling on one page. Chicago was supposed to have ECW. Chicago should have something. Chicago's got to be the next big city. There is so much talent here. I don't hear anything about the New York indy scene. I hear about Minnesota and California, but Chicago is a total hotbed, not just with the talent, not just with the promotions, but the fans. The fans are rabid for something quality.
AL: There is WWF and nothing. There seems to be some room and you could use some promotion. You say you've talked to Paul (Myers), does he seem receptive to helping you?
WHACK: Paul is doing what he's doing. I don't know. He's taking care of his own business. You've got Jayson Reign. Vic Capri. These guys are incredible workers. It's not even getting on the same page. Let's just get them in the same book. As far as Zenner, what would it take for me to come busting out on one of his shows? I would have to be sure he would want to be going in the direction I want to go. I would want to be sure my character would be used. I'd want to have say-so. I'd want to do the booking. I'd want that screen. I'd want to film and do the skits. Basically, I'd want it to be the LWF. If Zenner wanted to be our investor, all right.
AL: It would seem to make more sense for you to grab the mic at an MCW show than for Zenner to do it at one of your shows.
WHACK: Would it make more sense? Do you think? I would make his show look all right. I'm sure that's a bit of ego. I know what I want to do. I know it would be cool.
AL: Even if he comes out at your shows with his guys, it's real life. There is real-life drama there. He has used your guys, and you're not thrilled about it.
WHACK: We've used his guys, too. But it was never malicious. He took Grudge, changed his name, made him look stupid. He put a hat on him. Wait a minute, isn't that Grudge? No, he's wearing a hat. Is that Synn? No, that's Michael Synn. He's different. No he's not, he's the same guy that's been trained here that every Tuesday comes up and says what are you going to do with me? Well, we'll do this with you, that with you. He's a guy totally new to the whole business, Synn. Then you've got Zenner, hey I've got some money. You look really good. Here, want to wrestle for me? And suddenly Synn is a superstar.Hey, we try to do everything we can for these guys. Give them this, give them that. There's a method to this. I'm certainly not throwing money at the guys and saying you're from there, and we're going to put you here and we're going to make you wear a hat. It's embarrassing. It should be embarrassing. If Brian Zenner had looked through wrestling history books, he would know he is making an embarrassing mistake. He will slowly be burning bridges. He has got to be burning his checkbook. Do the math. That's just him. He has a different opinion, comes from a completely different background. I was born to do this. I grew up in the back of a car with my parents carting me - they had a boat - out to the marina and I'd sit there with my comic books and action figures, and video games and wrestling. Then I started to tie it all together. This guy should do this. And this guy should look like that. And this should be his music, because here he comes. Doesn't anyone else care?
AL: Is your frustration directed at Zenner for bringing them in, or for the guys for going over there?
WHACK: I don't fault the guys for going over there. They want to see what it's all about. They have lived in this LWF biodome. Hey, do what you want to do. But when you go over and see how their characters are getting handled, I'm getting a lot of phone calls from a lot of guys who want to come back, or come over for the first time. I would handle them properly. I would take time. I care what color wristbands the guy has when he's coming out. I care that he comes out 10 steps ahead, and his valet comes out cowering behind him. Every single aspect of the appearance, I care about. Don't you want every cylinder firing right? Don't you want everything in the storyline to be perfect? And everything they say to make sense and mean something. At one of their shows, guys came out face, then they turned heel, and at the end of the night, they were face. That's an insult to the business and an embarrassment to what we're trying to do. For one show? Have a little consistency.
AL: You've brought in guys he uses, Jayson Reign and Airborne. What drew them to the LWF? It's not for the money, right?
WHACK: You know what it is? We don't subscribe to the old theories. We want to do right to everybody. You hear some guys saying, "I'll never work for Sam again" And this guy pissed me off and Zenner's going crazy, or Mike Bonomo just copied everything the WWF did. That list goes on. There is certainly enough crap about me. I've got a list of enemies longer than Ron Jeremy. I want to fix all that. I want everybody to be back. Yes, everybody.
AL: Well, you say everybody. We could start with a guy, I'm sure you saw the 6-part interview with CM Punk. ... The legitimacy thing is very important to him. Was a guy like him in mind when you're bringing in a guy like Airborne or Brandon to train, since they'd add that legitimacy?
WHACK: Yes. I think. Are you asking me if I'd bring back CM Punk?
AL: Yes.
WHACK: There's a lot of issues. If I were to get in a fight with Havok, it's still family. They are family issues. It's not just myself. It's Broox. They're brothers. I am slowly becoming a businessman. There were things that happened on both sides. Yeah, I would take him back. Phil Brooks was like a brother. CM Punk was a character, maybe it took over Phil Brooks. Regardless, I would take them both back.
AL: You mean the man and his character?
WHACK: Yes, the man and his character.
AL: There are a lot of people who have left. Anyone who leaves anywhere, it seems obligatory to say something bad about the guy you've just left. I haven't heard that yet with Brawn or Venom. What would stand in the way of anyone coming back?
WHACK: Maybe they feel they weren't getting enough out of here. Maybe they figured they'd just check back with us later. I'm open to anything. Right now, I just want to plant the flag.
AL: Would the sort of thing that would prevent the planting of the flag be personal issues?
WHACK: I don't have personal issues. If anyone had a personal issue with the LWF, it always ended up directed at me. And I really don't want personal issues. Maybe they said in another time, or another place, it could have worked out. Well now, I want to turn back the clock and make it that time and place.
AL: There has been much ado about Brawn, maybe he just got tired of wrestling. Maybe he didn't have the input he used to have. Was there any bad blood?
WHACK: I don't think there's bad blood. I don't know if he wanted to do wrestling. I just think he thought it was his time to move on and do something else.
AL: There never was much doubt about where the creative planning and thinking came from, but now there can be even less doubt. There was Brawn, there was Billy Whack. But now there can be no question. This is your show.
WHACK: I don't know if he'd go along with it. He'd have very valid reasons why it might not work, but now I'm looking at it as a businessman and I want to get all the talent together. A lot of the ideas is me, but some of it is a hodgepodge. I can't take credit with everything. With Brawn and Venom, ideas bounced off all of us.
AL: You say you don't want any personal issues, but who is your enemy? Who is stopping you from planting your flag? Is there a person? What is stopping you?
WHACK: I can't think of anybody who is really giving me a problem. Especially now. I am really on cloud 9. Things are looking up and getting better and better and better. If anybody wants to be a part of the LWF, now is the time. Anyone who wants to interfere with that, that would have to be my enemy. Lead, follow, or get the hell out of my way. And if that means Brian Zenner, whatever's going to happen is going to happen. I'm focused on staying in this lane and if cars are passing or getting in my way, I'll try to get around them. I don't think anyone is an enemy, a driving force, total competition. We're just doing our thing.
AL: Guys like Acid, Jay Jensen and Double M have worked at MCW as well as LWF. In the future, is that a problem for you?
WHACK: The way I look at it, if we're all countries and we all have our nuclear weapons ready, nobody's really ready to fire on each other. I have a lot ideas, a lot of character things, a lot of angles and a lot of good gimmick switches and changes, for all of those guys. I have stuff for Double M, for Acid for Jensen. I would like them to stay here, and if they stay here, then we can proceed. We could go forward. We've come out with the Hot-Potato Belt and the Cell Block Match and we've brought the Shopping Cart match to a cool level. We can do the same for those characters. They're good characters. They're good workers. Let me handle that stuff. If they'll let me, I'll take it as far as we could possibly get with it. If they want to work with Zenner, I can't promise they'd get the same treatment. I would guarantee they wouldn't. We've put a lot into the characters. Character is everything.
AL: In using the Airborne character, is that a different story? He was with Zenner first. And how do you think (Zenner) views it? I'm sure he's not thrilled.
WHACK: There are things we could do with Airborne. When I get a commitment from these certain guys, then we could move forward. As for right now, I have no choice but to make them spot workers. We need a great match. You could put on that great match. But afterwards, you're not going to be attacked from a guy from your past. You're not going to get burned in the face and have to wear a mask. They''ll just be spot workers. And they're good at it. They're the best. If Zenner hadn't plucked them away, they wouldn't be superstars right now. If we hadn't pushed them, and Jensen wasn't the champion, and Acid wasn't the champion, and Double M wasn't the champion, maybe, just maybe, Zenner wouldn't have said, 'Those guys seem to be the power players over there. I'll take them.' We made them names. Zenner made them outsiders, like Kevin Nash and Scott Hall. Diesel and Razor Ramon, toward the end, they were still popular in WWF, but when they showed up on Nitro, that's when the whole war started. And what happened? Ted Turner didn't know how to use them. And it came back to the homegrown product, the WWF. And they knew how to do it. They just plodded right along. Where's Scott Hall? Where's Kevin Nash? Sure, they've made a lot of money, but if wrestling is in their heart, they would have stayed with the company that could have done the best for them.
AL: You feel, in this case, that is your company.
WHACK: Yes and no. They wanted to try that, more power to them. Maybe they've had a taste and they've come to the same realization that I have. Maybe things aren't so great over there. They get to work with ECW guys. Zenner will bring in ECW guys. Maybe it's cool for them to work in the locker room with them. That's like a resume. I worked with Chris Chetti, I worked with the FBI. OK, but what did you do on that show? What did they do for you on that show? How was your character on that show? Did they put you over? Or were you the curtain jerker? I saw Double M and Jensen - two of our former champions - at the one MCW show I went to, they were the opening match. I have to wonder if that was - 'Put them in the first match. And put a hat on Grudge.' You know what I mean.
AL: That bothers you. Putting a hat on Grudge bothers you, doesn't it? And calling him Steven Anthony bothers you, too.
WHACK: To me, it was a cheap attempt. We've got to make him different. He's the champion. That was embarrassing. It might have been embarrassing to Grudge. It wasn't embarrassing to me, but I thought Zenner should have been ashamed of himself. But if he doesn't care, if he just wants to make money, God bless him, I hope he did make money. I don't think he did off of Steven Anthony, but we've still got Grudge and we're putting him in our main event with our world title.
AL: You say right now is the time to get on LWF's bandwagon. What is it that would cause you to say this is why you should pick LWF?
WHACK: We care about the character. We take a look at the ability, we'll put him at the top. I think we have a pretty good sense of booking. I think this is going to be where things are happening. Jimmy Strons worked one show for us, and John Spahn plucked him out and do WWF. Missy and Michelle, two of our former valets, went out as the Godfather's hos, in WWF. Jensen and Acid and Double M all had ECW tryouts. I don't know that PCW or MCW so much or even Windy City would push for those guys. You get noticed here. There is a lot of history in that ring, a lot of history in this bump factory. Characters are made, and things happen.
AL: So it's nothing that changed then?
WHACK: It's our motto, our credo. We care. That's too cheesy of a slogan to have on our T-shirts, but that's what happens here, behind the scenes. Our referee comes out to entrance music. Our ring girl is the world's most dangerous ring girl. Everybody has a tag line. Everybody, even if they didn't do much on the show, they know I did this tonight. If people didn't know about them, and they weren't characters, then maybe Zenner wouldn't be approaching them, at our own god damn shows. Sitting in the audience. I've heard people have asked him, 'What'd you think of the show,' and he's like, 'Well, the show sucked.' Wow. Are you kidding me? I'm not saying our show is meant to blow you away, but our show is a show. It's $10. If you're going to spend $7.50 to go see a movie, why not spend $10 and see a live action athletic contest with a big screen and characters. It's like a play. And until people start realizing that and stop watching the rankings.
AL: Your guys are the ones watching (our rankings) the most.
WHACK: I know. They're concerned about it. But we write the stories, they're the performers. We take care of them.
AL: I've seen you at one of Zenner's shows.
WHACK: I love Low-Ki, that's all I'm going to say. They're not a family. They're a bunch of mercenaries, thrown together to wrestle, and they're all good at what they do, and they're the best. There's no doubt about it. He picks the best "wrestlers." I didn't understand some of the stuff they had going on. I couldn't hear their PA. For a guy with a lot of money, you'd figure he could have gotten a better PA system. With all that money, you'd think he'd have better production. We're scraping by and I think we do good. We have no money, but we care so god damn money. We have the screen. It's like, don't forget the table, because LPJ needs his comfort zone at the show. Chef Dementia, what are you going to be cooking up to serve to the fans? We have a guy in a chef outfit who is cooking up food and serving it to the fans. And a referee that comes out to his own music. I'm singing kereoke before the shows. I've got Arby's in my back pocket and I'm throwing it to the fans.We're playing the Grand Prize Game in the middle of the ring. It's entertainment. And if it never makes it to TV, come see it live. There's stuff happening live. We're coming up with new characters, and maybe the next one's going to be creepier or weirder. Guys are happy. There's a guy happy just being a chef. Everyone's happy here. When I went to MCW, they looked like a bunch of guys who were wrestling. And it is a wrestling show. I'll probably get knocked for trying to push the entertainment value, but I think that's what'll put asses in the seats. How was the wrestling? Well, it was good, but they had this guy come out and he... whatever. You know.
AL: Much has been made to what brought your shows to the 900 draw to where 400 is a good draw. You had the split. What happened at that point, and how do you get back to where you were drawing 900?
WHACK: I must be stupid. After the split, attendance was down, and it's never come back up. I don't understand. I don't know. I really don't know. We even brought back the guys, Mimic, Tyler Cross, Havok, Botch. Our big relaunch bringing those guys back, we were doing shows at Bourbon Street on Sunday afternoon. It was a bar. Maybe we picked the wrong dates. Maybe people started to find other things to do, which kind of bothers me. We have to get more radical, maybe it was a lack of fliers. We haven't been putting as many fliers. You put on a flier, Shopping Cart match, or Cage match. Or Lumberjack match. All the names and the logos. Take a look at this. We've been running TV commercials. Someone will be reading this and say, "Well the problem was, blah, blah, blah." I don't know.
AL: What do you think the fan is looking for? This happened before Brian Zenner. Brian Zenner isn't ruining Chicago wrestling. Or is it?
WHACK: There are so many different types of fans. There are guys who are strictly into the technical wrestling. There are people who might watch WWF and like the characters. Maybe you get young girls who like to come out and look at Maverick. Right now, what is drawing? I don't know, that's why we'll have something for everyone. I'm pretty sure in a city of more than 3 million people, we can get our numbers to where they were before.
AL: Do you like the venues you run now? Are the venues part of the problem?
WHACK: I like Midlothian. It's small, and we've configured it to the way we want it with the screen. We're not doing too bad. It's not great.
AL: Is it unfair to measure you against yourself from before?
WHACK: We do that all the time. It was like, Jesus, look at all those people. And they knew everything. And all the characters. They caught all the jokes. I just don't know.
AL: They weren't the same people going to Windy City shows. Those were LWF fans. Have they gone to MCW?
WHACK: They must like the wrestling, maybe they caught the radio commercial and didn't hear ours. Maybe there's so much going on. It's got to be oversaturation. People have to make a decision. When we're running 5 shows back to back to back, you'd have to get a monthly membership to be an LWF fan. Here's your $40 to get into all shows, or maybe for $35, you could get a monthly pass. We should space out or shows. Take some time and promote them like it's an event. I'm giving away battle secrets.
WHACK: Let me ask you a question. Where were you Saturday?
AL: MCW. I committed to it. They had the concept of a tag tournament months ago, and I said I would go. I do enjoy the entertainment of your shows. But when there is an LWF show and a Windy City show, or an MCW show and an LWF show... there aren't all that many fans going to the shows to start with. You're going to break them. Ten dollars might not break them, but $40 will. There are a lot of shows. You've suggested working with other people.
WHACK: Why don't you like me? Everyone in Chicago, why don't you like me. Especially guys who have never heard of me.
AL: You seem to have a hatred for Brian Zenner.
WHACK: It's not a hatred. At first, there were a couple nights I was up all nights, I was like, "What is going on?" We had just lost an investor. We talked about that way back. Everybody said to me, don't worry about it, that guy was a money mark, a mark for himself. Then, poof, MCW. Then I was wondering, hey, that investor guy we lost. He's not behind that, is he? (Zenner) was a guy trying to drive us down. The guys we had working there were like, "No, he's not trying to put you out of business." Bullshit. I want to put on a wrestling show. Now, maybe possibly guys are starting to see things are a little different, and maybe this will be the place. I don't hate Brian Zenner. I think the whole situation is laughable, and I'm embarrassed I was worried about it. If you give somebody enough rope, he'll hang himself, if he doesn't know what he's doing.
AL: You would work with Brian Zenner?
WHACK: He would have to work with me. I have the ideas. And he has the money. If he wants to make more money and be part of a quality wrestling show, work with us. I will not show up on an MCW show. He can work with us, not work for us. Even at that, I'd have to meet him and talk to him. The first time I met him, I'd gone to that MCW show. I was starstruck. I met Vince McMahon. I've met Shane McMahon. But when I saw Low-Ki, he made me excited about wrestling again. I saw his kicks, and I went up to Airborne and I asked, "Dude, are you all right?" And he was like, I'm fine (Whack holds his side and limps). I was intimidated. The show had ended and some of our guys had put LWF fliers on cars in the parking lot. I swear on Boy Scout honor, even though I'm not a Boy Scout, I didn't know. We found out Zenner was all mad about it. He told one of my guys, you tell Whack if he pulls that again, he'll have more than just me to deal with. I thought, holy smokes, I better stop this situation. I asked, who is Brian Zenner, I wanted to talk to him. I went up and I had my hand out, I was like, I'm really sorry. He looked me up and down and said, I'd never disrespect your show. I went up to apologize. I was thinking, OK, he's pissed, I understand. I went to shake his hand. He looked at my hand and he slowly put his hand out and begrudginginly shook my hand. I didn't want any heat. I walked away and I said to the guy I was with, I don't think he thought I was sincere. And the farther away I got, the more I start to think. Never disrespect his show? Our entire roster came out to watch his show. To support the show, and the guys who didn't pay to get in worked the show. Without any "Hey Billy Whack, can I use some of your guys?" None of that. I can't believe I just shook this man's hand. He may as well just have slapped me in the face. Now I look at what he's doing and think, "You give him enough rope, he'll hang himself." That's how I feel. I'm a jerk, but I think I'm a good jerk. I'm not an evil guy.
AL: Your shows aren't the normal shows, even by WWF/ECW standards. You might not have space aliens like you used to. It's not necessarily wrestling based. You've said his shows aren't entertaining.
WHACK: They are entertaining, for wrestling fans. It's the best wrestling there is. Jayson Reign, Vic Capri, and our guys. That's good wrestling. Airborne. Low-Ki. That's good stuff, but that's not our stuff.
AL: Let's say a guy like Low-Ki came to your show.
WHACK: I don't know where we'd put him.
AL: You found a place for New Jack.
WHACK: I've never met Low-Ki, we'd find a place for him. For christ sake, we've got a place for you.
AL: You're not just looking for the guy who can wrestle best, it's more the character. Would you say that's a fair assessment?
WHACK: Yes. But I'd like to get a good 50/50 going.
AL: At one time, it was hardcore blood and guts. Do you still appeal to that fan? Or now that a guy like Brawn isn't around anymore, can you still give that fan what he wants?
WHACK: That shopping cart match he did was fantastic. It gave us an adernaline burst that we needed. It's geting harder and harder in this age of "wrestlers." Put that in quotatations. They don't want to do that. It's a Catch-22, those kinds of matches bring people to shows, but the guys don't want to do them. We're kind of stuck. If we can find guys to do those things, we'll have everything.