Post by CW .org .info .net on Mar 24, 2019 8:36:25 GMT -6
Oliver Humperdink Interview - 2003
(by Wes Daniel, on the original Championship Wrestling from Florida Archives website)
After making his first tour of the state in 1974, Sir Oliver Humperdink became almost synonymous with Florida wrestling over the next 13 years. Having been involved in some of the greatest angles in Florida history, including three that made the top 25 of all time, he was an integral part of the state's wrestling landscape. While Humperdink worked several other territories and locations, including Montreal, Los Angeles, Charlotte, Atlanta and New York, Florida was almost always "home" for him. This interview for CWF Archives was conducted by Wes Daniel on July 21, 2003 and discusses Humperdink's start in the business, his first trips through Florida, his thoughts on several Florida stars, his feelings about working for other offices and a very candid rundown on the condition of pro wrestling in 2003. Sit back and enjoy a walk down memory lane with one of Championship Wrestling from Florida's all-time greats!
WD: So, Humperdink, how did you get started in wrestling?
SOH: I got started here in Minneapolis. I was working for an ushering company back when I was still in high school, so in the late 60’s, and we had the contract for a bunch of places: Metropolitan Stadium for the Twins and Vikings, and all major events that came into Minneapolis, The Beatles at the ballpark in ‘65 I think it was. So, I was working for the ushering outfit and we also had the contract for the Minneapolis Auditorium. I was an usher at the wrestling matches and there was a position that was kind of like guarding the dressing room door, just letting the boys in and keeping the fans out. That’s where they put me and through that I got to know a lot of the guys and got started traveling around setting up the ring with Marty Miller. I got to know (Blackjack) Mulligan before he was Mulligan, when he was Bob Windham, and guys like that. I saw Baron Von Raschke, Jim Raschke, and Ole Anderson and all those guys. So, I started traveling on the road with them, setting up the ring and going all over the place, I was still in high school then too. I got to know everybody. Then, the Vachons went to Montreal and opened up Montreal in ‘71 or ‘72 – Grand Prix Wrestling. I went up there the year before I started in the business just to visit and see what was going on and refereed a few times up there for them. I went back the following year which was ‘73 and hooked up with the Hollywood Blondes and that was that.
WD: Had you always been a fan?
SOH: Oh yes, always. I remember when I was a kid we had to be in bed at 8:00 and wrestling would come on here in Minneapolis at the same time, so I’d sneak up, we had a living room where I could lay down and look around the corner to kind of see the TV set. My mom and dad would both be watching wrestling back in the old days of Tiny Mills and Stan Kowalski and even before that with Leo Nomellini and Butch Levy and guys like that. I always liked it and then had a chance to get around the boys and get to meet the boys. I knew from a very young age that it was what I wanted to do.
WD: It’s very cool, not very many people get to live their dreams like that.
SOH: I certainly have and that’s one thing I have to be most grateful for.
WD: So, from the time that you were growing up, is there anybody that you patterned yourself after or were you your own creation?
SOH: There weren’t a whole lot of managers that came through Minneapolis prior to Bobby (Heenan). Bobby was the first and this was back before I even got in the business, he came in the late ‘60’s, like ’67 or so when I was graduating high school. I was still doing security work for the Minneapolis Boxing & Wrestling Club and the ushering outfit. Later on I quit working for the ushering place and just worked for Verne (Gagne) and Wally (Karbo). I was doing security and I’d sit right behind Heenan for every match, so I learned a lot from Heenan. He was probably the one I patterned most of my stuff off of. Not that I’d say I copied his stuff, but I learned a lot from watching him. Have you seen Heenan’s book?
WD: I have. It’s an excellent book.
SOH: He mentions me in there going back to the old days.
WD: Very good. So, your first tour of Florida was, what, in ’74?
SOH: Yes, 1974.
WD: And you were with The Hollywood Blondes?
SOH: Yes, indeed.
WD: When you went in, you got over pretty quickly. Was that your first major program?
SOH: Well, we were up in Montreal the year before that and the business was so phenomenal that we were big stars up there. Montreal was a major deal back in ’72, ’73. I remember of turning people away from buildings every night and ticket lines being wrapped around the buildings. They had people hanging from the rafters, so it was very big up there, it was a huge territory and we did very well up there. Florida was the first United States territory for Jerry and Buddy and I.
WD: When you were in Florida in ’74, you did a heel vs. heel feud with Rhodes and Slater. Do you have any recollections of that?
SOH: Not too many. I remember more going around with (Steve) Keirn and (Mike) Graham, the Brisco boys, Bob Armstrong was there at the time with a partner, but Dusty and Dickie we went around with a little bit, but we didn’t do a whole lot with them. Mostly Mike and Steve, Kevin (Sullivan) and Mike. The Welch boys, Lester Welch’s kids, we ran around a lot with them.
WD: When you were working with Mike Graham and Kevin Sullivan in that timeframe, what did you see in them?
SOH: I knew that they were going to be stars, they were both terrific workers and good guys. Back then it was a lot different because guys really knew how to sell and Mike was one of the best in the game. Kevin was a good seller too – that was key back then to being a good baby – knowing how to sell.
WD: So, when you and the Blondes came back in ’76, you had a big series of matches that involved Bob Backlund. Did you have any thoughts on Backlund at the time?
SOH: He was just getting started then, you know? Bob Backlund was one of the greatest guys and he’s still a good friend. I don’t want to say anything bad about him, but he was just such a, what we used to call a white meat babyface, just so white meat. I never really had any thoughts of him being a champion because he was from a totally different background. He was a good amateur and that and he lacked that spark and color that you needed to get the belt back in those days. He was a great kid and he’s still a good guy. I don’t want it to sound like I’m being derogatory to him at all, he was just such a white meat babyface – a freckle faced, redhead from Minnesota.
WD: He came across as being almost “milquetoast.”
SOH: I don’t even know if that’s a good term because that makes you think of somebody cowering in the corner and this kid could go. He just didn’t have that flash or charisma that a lot of guys had. It didn’t make him a bad guy or a bad worker. He was a convincing worker.
WD: So, you worked pretty much all over, but you always seemed to go back to Florida. Was that because of the pay or the weather or other reasons?
SOH: Looking back at it now, Wes, what I think I loved the most about being down there was working around Eddie Graham. I learned so much from him – he was a brilliant man when it came to wrestling. He didn’t have a formal education, I don’t even think he graduated from high school, I think he dropped out in 6th grade, but he was unparalleled in this business. Plus, it wasn’t a bad place to be. The trips were short back then, you could be home every night unless you didn’t want to be. It was a good place to be.
WD: How was the money in Florida compared to some of the other places you worked?
SOH: You know, it wasn’t as great as other places. You’d make more money in Oklahoma, but you’re on the road four or five nights a week, so the extra money you’d make, you’d spend on food and motels and stuff like that. It made a big difference.
WD: Looking back at your Florida years, do you have any favorite angles that you were involved in?
SOH: I’ve always liked the Superstar Billy Graham thing when we switched him babyface, I liked the thing with Paul Jones as Mr. Florida, I liked the thing when I turned babyface. I didn’t enjoy being a babyface, but I liked the angle. It had a lot of people talking.
WD: That’s actually my next question. You got over really quickly with that turn as, basically, the number 2 babyface in the territory.
SOH: Well, I don’t know if I’d go that far, but there are a couple of things to remember. People hated me, so when you do turn, you have that much of a leg up. People know you, know what you’re capable of and want to see you do it when you’re a babyface. The fact that I was next to Dusty Rhodes didn’t hurt.
WD: So, you didn’t like being a babyface?
SOH: I didn’t enjoy it, no. I didn’t enjoy it as much as I enjoyed being a heel.
WD: Why was that?
SOH: I don’t know. I guess I just had that heel persona down deep. It was great while it lasted, but I was glad it ran its course and I got back to doing what I enjoyed.
WD: I would imagine, though, that it was probably pretty difficult to be a babyface manager as opposed to a heel manager. As a heel manager, you could do so many things to get heat.
SOH: In my case though, I was over so strong as a heel manager that people loved to see me do the same shit, but I was doing it to the heels. I’d grab the legs and that. They’d try to stab me if I was doing it to the babyface, but they were patting me on the back if I did it to the heels. That part, if you’re established strong as a heel manager and you make the switch, you can work babyface. But just coming out as a good guy manager without a reputation before that, it just doesn’t work.
WD: Whose idea was it for you to turn babyface and do that angle?
SOH: You know I’m not even sure how we came upon that, to tell you the truth. I’m trying to think back now. I don’t know. Maybe they were wanting to use Al Hayes for a while and decided to put me on the other side. I can’t remember what it was, but I turned against Al. Al came in during the time I was in servitude to Dusty and took over the House. Then, when I said, “Okay, I’m back boys,” they stomped me into the ground. I’m thinking that they wanted to let Al run with the heel side for a while.
WD: What was it like working with Hayes on the other side?
SOH: It was a night off every night. He was great. I have nothing but good things to say about him. We had a couple of matches, and we weren’t expected to go out there and do 20 or 30 minutes. You know, Al could have done it, but I couldn’t. The stuff that we did was short and sweet, and, I think, got over.
WD: It absolutely did (get over). Who were some of your favorite guys to manage – regardless of whether it was Florida or somewhere else?
SOH: The Blondes and I had a great time together. Then, when we split there in Florida around ’77 or so, I hooked up with Superstar Billy Graham and Ox Baker. I’ve had the great fortune of working with some great talent, you know? Jody Hamilton, Don Muraco, Bobby Jaggers, Randy Tyler, Nikolai Volkoff, Saito – you know the list. All top guys, and it was a pleasure working with them all. There was a couple that I’d have to devote more time to, going over finishes or worry about going in the ring and maybe having them blow a spot or something, but then there were other ones where it was like a night off for me.
WD: You and Al Hayes were telling some interesting Bobby Jaggers stories at Cauliflower Alley.
SOH: They’re all true! They’re all fucking true! That’s the worst part about it. Every word you heard was the truth.
WD: Any thoughts you’d like to share on that?
SOH: Bobby’s a great guy, he has a tendency to exaggerate, but, aaahhh….. to know him is to love him.
WD: When I was telling people that I was doing this interview, the one thing that almost every person brought up was an angle in Florida, I think it was around 1980 with you, Muraco and Saito. You guys did a workout on television, Gordon showed a portion of the workout that you didn’t want shown.
SOH: It was Muraco working on that Asian Spike thing, the piledriver, right?
WD: Right, and you got kind of physical with Gordon. I did not remember the angle myself and found it tape the other night and watched it. A lot of people said that it seemed very real and, watching it, it did. I mean, you looked like you were ready to take his head off.
SOH: It wasn’t him at the gym, it was the cameraman. We came back after the film and Gordon and I were at the desk. That’s when I blew up and grabbed him, right?
WD: Yes.
SOH: You see, it was a shocking thing because, I’m not sure if I was the first, but I was one of the only people to ever touch Gordon Solie. Nobody put a hand on Gordon, so I think that kind of lent to the credibility of it.
WD: The thing about it is that everybody who brought it up to me was really wondering about its reality. These aren’t guys who aren’t smart to the business. They were wondering if it was actually real, if you were really upset and if there was heat between you and Gordon because it was so realistic.
SOH: Well, should we keep them guessing or should I tell you?
WD: You can tell me, Hump!
SOH: All right, Gordon and I had worked it out in advance, so it was a worked fight. Gordon and I got along famously. I loved him. He was a Minneapolis guy. Did you know that?
WD: I didn’t know that.
SOH: Yeah, he grew up in Minneapolis and we had a lot in common. Gordon and I were very, very close for a long time. I probably got on his nerves and God knows he got on mine, but we always had a great relationship. Even in the later years, we were doing a tape for Matsuda. We’d get tapes from Japan of the American guys in Japan, working over there, and Inoki would send it to him, we’d take what we wanted off, put together a tape that was syndicated through Europe on that Sky satellite thing.
WD: Yeah, I remember of reading about that.
SOH: Yeah, Gordon and I would do the commentary on that. So, even later, past the CWF years, we worked together. Gordon and I were very, very good friends.
WD: Did most of the guys get along well with Gordon?
SOH: Yes. I don’t know of anybody who had a problem with Gordon.
WD: It’s interesting watching some of the old tapes and seeing some of the comments people would make to Gordon, at the time they didn’t mean anything to me, but now, having read things about him, a lot of people would subtly and even not so subtly reference his drinking. Not to be disrespectful of him….
SOH: Gordon enjoyed a toddy now and then!!!
WD: Yes he did!
SOH: And there’s nothing wrong with that!
WD: You’re right. I’ve got Terry Funk making reference to it and…
SOH: I did it from time to time as well.
WD: Really?
SOH: There was a line, in fact, I told him one time that we had a party one time when Johnny G. Lyons had a band out and there was a press conference announcing a song, I said, “Oh, Gordon, you should have been there. We had an open bar and everything.” Little zingers like that, but they weren’t done with malice, they were done in a kidding way. And, like you said, at the time, nobody knew what the hell we were talking about.
WD: Now, in retrospect, it’s kind of shocking, but at the time, it didn’t mean anything to anybody.
SOH: Right, it was all done in fun. It didn’t happen a lot, but when it did, it was meant to be funny and not painful.
WD: Okay. So, Jerry Prater, who published The Grapevine and was a timekeeper at different venues did a series of articles called, “A Touch of Class,” in the Grapevine.
SOH: Right.
WD: I think they really got you a lot of heat. Reading back over them, some of them were pretty classic stuff. Did you have any input at all in those articles and what did you think of them?
SOH: Well, you know, Jerry mostly just ran with them. He’d be at the TV when we were taping or we’d call and tell him exactly what we did at TV and he’d pretty much pick up the ball and run with it. He knew all the guys’ personalities and what they’d probably say if he wasn’t quoting them. He saw what we did, we told him what we did and he went.
WD: Did you read the articles regularly?
SOH: All the time.
WD: What did you think of them?
SOH: I thought they were great. They did put extra heat on me. It was a good thing and worked out well. Jerry’s a brilliant guy and a very talented guy. I’d love to know if he’s still around, what he’s doing and give him a call or something.
WD: I was just going to ask you if you knew where he was at or what he was doing.
SOH: He lived up there around old-town Florida. I think I heard he was still up around there somewhere. I don’t know how to get a hold of him, but I’d sure like to try and I’d like to give him a call and see what he’s up to. Nice guy. Jerry and I always got along well. We were kind of diametrically opposed, you knew, Jerry kind of took pride in the fact that he was a redneck type from old-town Florida, up kind of south of Tallahassee there. That’s kind of redneck territory and Jerry’s a card-carrying redneck. Of course, my persona was the opposite of that, but we always got along.
WD: Wasn’t it in those “Touch of Class” articles where there was the “Redneck of the Week?”
SOH: Yup. (Laughs) There were so many good candidates back then, you know, Dusty, Dickie Murdoch, God rest his soul, Barry Windham and Manny Fernandez. They were all rednecks anyway. Sometimes when you told the people the truth and they knew it was the truth, they got ten times madder! (Laughs)
WD: Tell me what you remember about the angles you worked with Bubba Douglas. I remember you guys had the hair vs. hair match.
SOH: Yeah, Bubba, he was a heck of a guy. He was a good talent, you could have a good match with him, you know? He used to love it when they put him in programs with me because it meant payday. I’ll tell you a quick little story. One time I was up here in Minneapolis for the Christmas holidays and we were booked in Lakeland the day after Christmas or the day after New Years or something like that, but I was up here in Minneapolis. He was so worried that I’d get stuck up here and not be able to get back down there so we could have our little match so he could get that payday. Yeah, he was a great guy and we got along well too. Great guy. A sweetheart. I made some money with the guy too. Especially around Lakeland, you know, he was over like a million bucks. They called him the unofficial mayor.
WD: Right, I remember that.
SOH: He was over like a million bucks in that town. We’d come in and do a hair vs. hair or some kind of gimmick match and the people loved it.
WD: Thinking about that hair vs. hair match, wasn’t it somewhat uncommon for a babyface to lose a hair vs. hair match?
SOH: You’re saying that usually it’s the other way around – the heel gets their hair cut?
WD: Yeah.
SOH: That would be the final blow off. By me heeling over Bubba, it gave us something to come back with.
WD: That’s true.
SOH: So, we didn’t use that as a blow off, we used that as a continuation.
WD: But you would have looked so darn good bald, Humperdink!
SOH: I look good any way you see me! (Laughs) I would have looked hideous and you know that! (Laughs) I always said I would cut it, but it would be for a pretty good size check when I did.
WD: I would guess it would have to be huge! Now, from my perspective, probably the most successful point in your career was probably your run in Mid Atlantic?
SOH: Yes, yes. Had a pretty good run up there.
WD: Any memories or thoughts of that time frame?
SOH: It was a great time. I had a lot of great people around me too. I was very, very fortunate to work with a lot of great guys. Ivan Koloff, Leroy Brown I had up there, Greg Valentine, Paul Jones when he was still working, so I always had great talent around me. Jos LeDuc, bless his heart. We went around with Jimmy Valiant just about every night for two years. We had a great time and I had nothing but fun in Charlotte. It was a nice place to be, Crockett was okay to work for. It was kind of hard because it was a big territory and we were busy all the time. Gary Hart lived in the same apartment building as I did. Hart had Kabuki up there at the time and Magic Dragon and somebody else too. I had friends around me and the money was good. I was happy there. I don’t think that was any greater… I like the stuff I did in Florida. I don’t think it was any better than in Florida, I was just continuing doing it someplace else, I think.
WD: Right. I think it’s probably just that you got a lot of press when you were in Mid Atlantic.
SOH: Right.
WD: I still have some of those House of Humperdink cards in storage somewhere.
SOH: Really? I’ll be damned. You know, I saw something on the Internet about those the other day. Somebody still had their cards. Piper’s Palace and House of Humperdink. That was a good time, I had fun up there. It was a good little territory, it was red hot, we were making money and doing good. It was hard because it was a big territory, but I had a good time. A lot of very knowledgeable and capable people.
WD: So, going back to Florida, somebody brought something up about the regular schedule in Florida. You had Orlando on Sunday’s and your TV on Tuesday or Wednesday’s or whatever they were. You had your pretty regular schedule in the bigger cities like Miami, Orlando and Tampa. You also worked a lot of smaller spot shows in Ocala, Palatka, Leesburg and places like that. What was it like working those smaller towns?
SOH: Great. They weren’t overexposed to a lot of shows. You’d find some people getting a little bit jaded in the major markets, but you get outside the major towns and they were hungry for entertainment. They were hungry for wrestling. You could make them pop all night long without doing anything.
WD: Any issues with the fans in those towns or anything?
SOH: Oh yeah, you know, being a heel manager, you’re always the first one that they want to grab. They figure that they can beat you. Over the years I’ve had guns drawn on me, knives drawn on me and stuff like that. I’ve been lucky that I haven’t been hurt. I got hit one night with a Heineken bottle coming out of the ring in Tallahassee and that hurt pretty bad. Got hit one night in Los Angeles with a cue ball. Got hit with a baby bottle one night.
WD: Really?
SOH: Yeah, can you envision the woman feeding the kid, getting pissed off at me, yanking the bottle out of the kid’s mouth and chucking it at me? (Laughs) Yeah, I’ve been hit with a lot of stuff, but nothing major. Nothing where I had to go to the hospital or anything. It was like being a target out there – especially the small towns, they didn’t have security or anything. Maybe the ring guys or something, but, how good are they? So, it was interesting.
WD: Somebody in Ocala, I think, said something about trying to stab you there.
SOH: Just one of the hazards of the game. Of course, they thought it was real then, too. Who can blame them for getting upset? I was such a prick.
WD: If only they knew the real you, huh?
SOH: Yeah, if only they knew! (Laughs)
WD: So you worked the card at the “Last Tangle in Tampa,” didn’t you?
SOH: Yes, I did.
WD: How were you involved in that?
SOH: I was managing Muraco that night for one. Scott Irwin, Super D, was on that card. I believe Muraco worked with Backlund that night. Who all worked that? Do you remember the card?
WD: The only thing I remember was Dusty vs. Race with Fritz Von Erich as referee.
SOH: That was the main event. I bet you I went out from the dressing room that night about three or four times. I remember Muraco and Backlund, I believe for the WWF title. I believe it was Super D and it might have been Paul Jones as Mr. Florida.
WD: I think it was.
SOH: And I had at least one, maybe two more guys there. Wish they would have paid me by the trip!
WD: You mean they didn’t??
SOH: No, the bastards! (Laughs)
WD: How was the atmosphere that night? Was it different than you were used to?
SOH: It was Tampa Stadium, brother! It’s a big venue, did quite well as I remember. I think we did pretty good on it. It was a heady night. It’s Tampa Stadium, you know?
WD: Do you have any particular card in Florida that you’d say was your favorite?
SOH: Let’s see. One down in Miami, think it was Lord of the Rings or something. That was good. I don’t know, you know, I had fun every night. I don’t even think I have favorites anymore. Just every night, I went out there and tried to have the best time I could. I did my job and tried to get heat on the right guys, blow it off at the right time.
WD: The last couple years you were in Florida, you were aligned with Kevin Sullivan and his group. Do you have any thoughts on those days or any memories of them?
SOH: I do. It was a lot of fun. It was very cutting edge. You didn’t have people talking about the stuff we talked about and especially on a wrestling show. We had fun with the gimmick and people today still ask he was serious about that shit. Of course not.
WD: Right, that just came up on Kayfabe Memories not that long ago.
SOH: It was a gimmick that we did. We never mentioned the devil, never mentioned Satan. We called him Abudadein. We knew how far we could go and we didn’t cross that line. Plus, we also knew…. This was a time, a lot of people are down on this period of Florida wrestling because it wasn’t the best. But, this is what we had going: we had Vince gobbling up everybody else, so we knew it was a matter of time. He had his TV all over down there, so, we had to do something kind of whack like that to get their attention. People are down on it and it’s arguably not the best period, but we had to do it to survive. Keep the territory open, to make a living.
WD: You were pretty much there right to the bitter end.
SOH: Pretty much, yeah.
WD: Was it obvious that it was coming?
SOH: Sure. We knew it. We knew it. That’s why we went as far as we did with the Abudadein stuff, you know? We knew it was coming but we didn’t know when. We could see it happening all around us. We weren’t idiots, we’d been around the business for a long time. We knew it was coming and knew that if there was any hope of keeping the territory going we had to do stuff that people would think was weird enough to watch I guess.
WD: How were the guys reacting to it? Knowing that the end was near?
SOH: You know we always had good crews down there. Right to the end the crews were good. It was a bunch of younger guys that were just starting out and hadn’t been around and had hopes we could keep going and keep digging. We knew we couldn’t compete, you know, but just try to keep the territory open so we could work five or six nights a week. A lot of those guys were very optimistic. Kevin and I could see it coming and a couple of other guys down there too. We tried to keep everybody busy and working and stay around as long as we could.
WD: After Eddie Graham died, who took over the business end of the company?
SOH: Duke (Keomuka) and Matsuda. I think Mike really didn’t want to be tied down to the business end of it. He wasn’t that type of guy. He didn’t want to devote the time it took to really keep it running. Duke was, Duke Keomuka, he’s dead now, but when he was there, he tried the best he could to keep it alive and then he left. Matsuda was running it by himself. We did what we could with what we had. Tried to, at least, make it something out of the ordinary. A lot of people were down on us for doing that kind of stuff. We knew the end was near and we wanted to extend it as long as we could. That’s the name of that tune.
WD: Do you think that the end would have worked out differently if Eddie had been alive?
SOH: You know, I sit and I watch Vince and his product now and I find myself asking if Eddie were alive today and watched this, how would he react to it? You understand? I don’t know if it would be any different if Eddie would still be alive with the eventuality of Vince owning everything, but I’d like to think it would be different. I don’t know. A very hypothetical question. Eddie was 100% for protecting the business and it’s just swung so far the other way, I don’t know if Eddie would be able to cope with it.
WD: Something I’ve noticed is that, no matter where I’ve ever gone with you, you’ve always known everybody.
SOH: You mean the boys or….?
WD: Just everybody, everywhere. Going out to clubs, you knew all the bouncers and the bartenders and the waitresses. You knew everybody.
SOH: I’m a friendly type of guy. You know, the heels always had the benefit of taking their aggressions out in the ring. Most of the heels, outside the ring, are really gentle guys. Very great gentlemen, have good manners and that. It’s the babyfaces who you’d think would be the angels outside the ring who are really the assholes. I always tried to get along with everybody everywhere. I had my job to do, I went out there and did it, but I never saw a point in carrying that persona. If some guy wanted to fight or something like that, it was different. I saw no point in carrying that persona around outside the ring. That was my life, you can’t be like that 24 hours a day, you’d go nuts.
WD: You know, talking about babyfaces who were assholes, a few jump to mind. You can go with that where you want. (Laughs)
SOH: You know, I find more people saying that too, it’s not just my opinion. A lot of people say that. Outside the ring, the heels were the good guys.
WD: Do you ever want to go back into wrestling? Do you ever find yourself sitting there, thinking, “Gosh, I wish I could be out there doing this?”
SOH: No and I’ll tell you why. I think the philosophy in this business now, at least as far as Vince is concerned, has passed me by. You know, I don’t understand it anymore. I don’t understand setting J.R. on fire. I don’t understand taking the mask off Kane and telling everybody he’s horribly disfigured when you can see he’s not. I don’t see the logic. I know he’s not going for logic, he’s going for the storylines. I think it’s just passed me by, Wes. If it could go back to how it was, I’d consider it, but I think it’s just passed me by now.
WD: What about working some indie shows or something like that.
SOH: Well, you know, no, I don’t know. I mean, if a couple of old buddies called me or something, but I’ve got nothing to prove. There’s no reason to get on stage.
WD: You know, when I was growing up as a kid, I never wanted to be a wrestler, I wanted to be a manger. It looked like the most fun thing in the business.
SOH: It was, Wes, it was the most fun thing you can imagine.
WD: It’s sad that, to kids who are watching now, there are no managers anymore. It’s bimbos in bikinis, but there’s not managers like you were or like Heenan was.
SOH: But, when you completely destroy their belief in it, there’s no point. It would be a moot point these days. I think it’s an era gone by. I was glad to be a part of it. I don’t mean to sound pessimistic. God bless them, let them do what they’re doing. It doesn’t have to make me happy, but you know, I had my time in the sun. I think I did fairly well at what I did and it’s over.
WD: I was talking to Barry the other night about the old Florida days and about managers specifically and we both said that you and Heenan were it. You guys epitomized what it meant and what people should do.
SOH: That goes back to me watching Heenan so much when I was a kid. I thought he was a genius. I still believe that you can get so much more with an attempt than with the actual action. Know what I mean?
WD: Absolutely.
SOH: Instead of running over there and kicking him, sneak over there like you’re going to kick him. It gets more heat and gets people more excited. That’s just one of the changes between then and now.
WD: You know, I read an interview with Ox Baker where he…..
SOH: He’s one of my favorites.
WD: He was great. He scared the shit out of me when I was a kid!
SOH: You should have been there the year before at Cauliflower Alley! He was there and hasn’t changed a bit.
WD: Yeah, I was reading an interview with him where he said that Dick the Bruiser taught him that he would get more heat if he kept reaching into his tights acting like he was going to pull a foreign object out than if he would have pulled one out and used it.
SOH: Yup. That anticipation. You know, I had the good luck of being around Bruiser too. When I was growing up, when I was still in high school, I was down there at the auditorium and you know what good talent Verne had through here. Ray Stevens, Pat Patterson, Nick Bockwinkel, back when these guys were still working, Red Bastien, Billy Red Lyons, Hercules Cortez, Crusher, Bruiser, Valiant Brothers. All these people that came through this area, I had a great opportunity to watch the best. I think that molded me and inspired me, seeing what the great ones did. Gary Hart and I have had this discussion many times about nothing really being original because we steal a little bit from this guy, a little bit from this guy, what you like about that guy and put it all together into one character. When you saw me, you saw a little bit of Lou Albano, a little bit of Jackie Gleason, a composite character, you know? That’s what you had a chance to build back then, but now you don’t have a chance to do that. The characters today are so flat and so one-dimensional. Not like a Missouri Mauler or Dick the Bruiser. Guys that God only knows what they did on their off time. So, that’s how it’s changed, at least in my opinion.
WD: A lot of guys back in those days, you brought up Dick the Bruiser, I know that he lived his character.
SOH: So did the Mauler. Everybody did back then.
WD: Right. You could really believe those. Dick Murdoch is another example. You could really see those guys living their characters.
SOH: But, you see, it wasn’t a character. Like I told you, we took a little bit here and there, but they weren’t characters. Dick Murdoch was Dick Murdoch, he wasn’t a character. What Humperdink was back then wasn’t a character, nobody said let’s come up with a character like Vince is creating characters. Back then, the characters were there and would just take little parts of different people. Mauler, he lived his gimmick. Mauler was Mauler. You didn’t tell Mauler how to act because he didn’t know how to act. I didn’t know how to act, all I knew was how to be myself or what I know that I hate about people and that’s what I’d do. It wasn’t really a character. Now everybody is so consumed with characters. Now, the character comes first and they get somebody to play it. Back then it was the guy worked into the character and into the story. When I went to Vince and did that babyface thing with the shiny coat and all that, that wasn’t me. That’s what he wanted me to be. I could never be that. It looked foolish for me to try, it just wasn’t me. Some guys, I guess, you can act and can be any character they want you to be. I was always an extension of me and what I picked up from other people, like everybody else back then.
WD: So, were you completely ready to leave the whole time you were doing the role for Vince or was the money just so good?
SOH: Well, it got to a point where they weren’t doing that well and they would just have me sit home. Remember when they were just having me sit home in Daytona?
WD: Yes.
SOH: I’d just go and do their TV’s twice a month then I’d be off the rest of the time and they’d send me checks for everywhere Bam Bam wrestled. They’d send me the payoffs from the town. That was great with me because I’d be gone four days a month and home the rest of the time getting checks. That part of it was all right, but it was a lot of travel up there. A lot of corporate bullshit and headgames.
WD: What did you think of your run in WCW as Big Daddy Dink?
SOH: I thought it was kind of stupid too. I think that anytime you try to take an established character and make him into someone else, it never works. That wasn’t me either. Yeah, I had fun every night. But, it was the same thing, the corporate bullshit. Jim Herd, Ring Ding’s, Ding-a-ling’s or whatever he was going to call them. (Laughs)
WD: You were working with Hayes and Garvin there, right?
SOH: Yes, and Diamond Dallas Page. The Diamond Exchange. I was the road boss. He’d be busy doing other things and I’d be out on the road with the tag team.
WD: Were there any guys that you worked with that you just didn’t like working with?
SOH: No. Like I said, there were some that needed closer watching than others to make sure they didn’t mess something up, but they were all a joy. Some of them I was closer to than others. Some guys you could put it on autopilot. I’d know what he was going to do and he would do it, he knew what I was going to do and that I would do it. Go out there and have the best 20 minutes we’d ever had. Other times, when you’d have to worry about if this guy was going to go out there and screw up a finish or do something else off the wall, instead of messing with the fans, you’d have to keep in mind what you needed to do so it would go smooth.
WD: What do you think of CWF Archives?
SOH: CWF Archives is a MAGNIFICENT site! I tell you, I stop there every day. Barry Rose is a great guy, I’ve written him a couple of times, he’s written me. I told him he did a great job and all that, if he needed anything from me just to give me a call. I think it’s great, I think it’s such a good site, not only because it’s an old Florida site, but because it’s a well put-together site and they’ve got great material.
WD: Absolutely. Going to it really rekindled my interest in Florida wrestling.
SOH: I was on there this afternoon as a matter of fact. I was looking at some programs from back in the ‘80’s when I switched. I clicked on a few of those and saw a picture of Jaggers putting the boots to me when they jumped me. It brings back a lot of memories for me too. It think it’s a great site. I’m just tickled that I can be a small part of it.
WD: Any messages you want to send out to all the people who read CWF Archives, Kayfabe Memories and miss the old days?
SOH: Thank you for letting me be part of your life!
WD: Well, thank you for all the fun you brought to all of us. I remember how much I hated you when I was a kid, so you did your job!
SOH: Oh, Wes, you’re just saying that! (Laughs) Thanks, buddy!
(by Wes Daniel, on the original Championship Wrestling from Florida Archives website)
After making his first tour of the state in 1974, Sir Oliver Humperdink became almost synonymous with Florida wrestling over the next 13 years. Having been involved in some of the greatest angles in Florida history, including three that made the top 25 of all time, he was an integral part of the state's wrestling landscape. While Humperdink worked several other territories and locations, including Montreal, Los Angeles, Charlotte, Atlanta and New York, Florida was almost always "home" for him. This interview for CWF Archives was conducted by Wes Daniel on July 21, 2003 and discusses Humperdink's start in the business, his first trips through Florida, his thoughts on several Florida stars, his feelings about working for other offices and a very candid rundown on the condition of pro wrestling in 2003. Sit back and enjoy a walk down memory lane with one of Championship Wrestling from Florida's all-time greats!
WD: So, Humperdink, how did you get started in wrestling?
SOH: I got started here in Minneapolis. I was working for an ushering company back when I was still in high school, so in the late 60’s, and we had the contract for a bunch of places: Metropolitan Stadium for the Twins and Vikings, and all major events that came into Minneapolis, The Beatles at the ballpark in ‘65 I think it was. So, I was working for the ushering outfit and we also had the contract for the Minneapolis Auditorium. I was an usher at the wrestling matches and there was a position that was kind of like guarding the dressing room door, just letting the boys in and keeping the fans out. That’s where they put me and through that I got to know a lot of the guys and got started traveling around setting up the ring with Marty Miller. I got to know (Blackjack) Mulligan before he was Mulligan, when he was Bob Windham, and guys like that. I saw Baron Von Raschke, Jim Raschke, and Ole Anderson and all those guys. So, I started traveling on the road with them, setting up the ring and going all over the place, I was still in high school then too. I got to know everybody. Then, the Vachons went to Montreal and opened up Montreal in ‘71 or ‘72 – Grand Prix Wrestling. I went up there the year before I started in the business just to visit and see what was going on and refereed a few times up there for them. I went back the following year which was ‘73 and hooked up with the Hollywood Blondes and that was that.
WD: Had you always been a fan?
SOH: Oh yes, always. I remember when I was a kid we had to be in bed at 8:00 and wrestling would come on here in Minneapolis at the same time, so I’d sneak up, we had a living room where I could lay down and look around the corner to kind of see the TV set. My mom and dad would both be watching wrestling back in the old days of Tiny Mills and Stan Kowalski and even before that with Leo Nomellini and Butch Levy and guys like that. I always liked it and then had a chance to get around the boys and get to meet the boys. I knew from a very young age that it was what I wanted to do.
WD: It’s very cool, not very many people get to live their dreams like that.
SOH: I certainly have and that’s one thing I have to be most grateful for.
WD: So, from the time that you were growing up, is there anybody that you patterned yourself after or were you your own creation?
SOH: There weren’t a whole lot of managers that came through Minneapolis prior to Bobby (Heenan). Bobby was the first and this was back before I even got in the business, he came in the late ‘60’s, like ’67 or so when I was graduating high school. I was still doing security work for the Minneapolis Boxing & Wrestling Club and the ushering outfit. Later on I quit working for the ushering place and just worked for Verne (Gagne) and Wally (Karbo). I was doing security and I’d sit right behind Heenan for every match, so I learned a lot from Heenan. He was probably the one I patterned most of my stuff off of. Not that I’d say I copied his stuff, but I learned a lot from watching him. Have you seen Heenan’s book?
WD: I have. It’s an excellent book.
SOH: He mentions me in there going back to the old days.
WD: Very good. So, your first tour of Florida was, what, in ’74?
SOH: Yes, 1974.
WD: And you were with The Hollywood Blondes?
SOH: Yes, indeed.
WD: When you went in, you got over pretty quickly. Was that your first major program?
SOH: Well, we were up in Montreal the year before that and the business was so phenomenal that we were big stars up there. Montreal was a major deal back in ’72, ’73. I remember of turning people away from buildings every night and ticket lines being wrapped around the buildings. They had people hanging from the rafters, so it was very big up there, it was a huge territory and we did very well up there. Florida was the first United States territory for Jerry and Buddy and I.
WD: When you were in Florida in ’74, you did a heel vs. heel feud with Rhodes and Slater. Do you have any recollections of that?
SOH: Not too many. I remember more going around with (Steve) Keirn and (Mike) Graham, the Brisco boys, Bob Armstrong was there at the time with a partner, but Dusty and Dickie we went around with a little bit, but we didn’t do a whole lot with them. Mostly Mike and Steve, Kevin (Sullivan) and Mike. The Welch boys, Lester Welch’s kids, we ran around a lot with them.
WD: When you were working with Mike Graham and Kevin Sullivan in that timeframe, what did you see in them?
SOH: I knew that they were going to be stars, they were both terrific workers and good guys. Back then it was a lot different because guys really knew how to sell and Mike was one of the best in the game. Kevin was a good seller too – that was key back then to being a good baby – knowing how to sell.
WD: So, when you and the Blondes came back in ’76, you had a big series of matches that involved Bob Backlund. Did you have any thoughts on Backlund at the time?
SOH: He was just getting started then, you know? Bob Backlund was one of the greatest guys and he’s still a good friend. I don’t want to say anything bad about him, but he was just such a, what we used to call a white meat babyface, just so white meat. I never really had any thoughts of him being a champion because he was from a totally different background. He was a good amateur and that and he lacked that spark and color that you needed to get the belt back in those days. He was a great kid and he’s still a good guy. I don’t want it to sound like I’m being derogatory to him at all, he was just such a white meat babyface – a freckle faced, redhead from Minnesota.
WD: He came across as being almost “milquetoast.”
SOH: I don’t even know if that’s a good term because that makes you think of somebody cowering in the corner and this kid could go. He just didn’t have that flash or charisma that a lot of guys had. It didn’t make him a bad guy or a bad worker. He was a convincing worker.
WD: So, you worked pretty much all over, but you always seemed to go back to Florida. Was that because of the pay or the weather or other reasons?
SOH: Looking back at it now, Wes, what I think I loved the most about being down there was working around Eddie Graham. I learned so much from him – he was a brilliant man when it came to wrestling. He didn’t have a formal education, I don’t even think he graduated from high school, I think he dropped out in 6th grade, but he was unparalleled in this business. Plus, it wasn’t a bad place to be. The trips were short back then, you could be home every night unless you didn’t want to be. It was a good place to be.
WD: How was the money in Florida compared to some of the other places you worked?
SOH: You know, it wasn’t as great as other places. You’d make more money in Oklahoma, but you’re on the road four or five nights a week, so the extra money you’d make, you’d spend on food and motels and stuff like that. It made a big difference.
WD: Looking back at your Florida years, do you have any favorite angles that you were involved in?
SOH: I’ve always liked the Superstar Billy Graham thing when we switched him babyface, I liked the thing with Paul Jones as Mr. Florida, I liked the thing when I turned babyface. I didn’t enjoy being a babyface, but I liked the angle. It had a lot of people talking.
WD: That’s actually my next question. You got over really quickly with that turn as, basically, the number 2 babyface in the territory.
SOH: Well, I don’t know if I’d go that far, but there are a couple of things to remember. People hated me, so when you do turn, you have that much of a leg up. People know you, know what you’re capable of and want to see you do it when you’re a babyface. The fact that I was next to Dusty Rhodes didn’t hurt.
WD: So, you didn’t like being a babyface?
SOH: I didn’t enjoy it, no. I didn’t enjoy it as much as I enjoyed being a heel.
WD: Why was that?
SOH: I don’t know. I guess I just had that heel persona down deep. It was great while it lasted, but I was glad it ran its course and I got back to doing what I enjoyed.
WD: I would imagine, though, that it was probably pretty difficult to be a babyface manager as opposed to a heel manager. As a heel manager, you could do so many things to get heat.
SOH: In my case though, I was over so strong as a heel manager that people loved to see me do the same shit, but I was doing it to the heels. I’d grab the legs and that. They’d try to stab me if I was doing it to the babyface, but they were patting me on the back if I did it to the heels. That part, if you’re established strong as a heel manager and you make the switch, you can work babyface. But just coming out as a good guy manager without a reputation before that, it just doesn’t work.
WD: Whose idea was it for you to turn babyface and do that angle?
SOH: You know I’m not even sure how we came upon that, to tell you the truth. I’m trying to think back now. I don’t know. Maybe they were wanting to use Al Hayes for a while and decided to put me on the other side. I can’t remember what it was, but I turned against Al. Al came in during the time I was in servitude to Dusty and took over the House. Then, when I said, “Okay, I’m back boys,” they stomped me into the ground. I’m thinking that they wanted to let Al run with the heel side for a while.
WD: What was it like working with Hayes on the other side?
SOH: It was a night off every night. He was great. I have nothing but good things to say about him. We had a couple of matches, and we weren’t expected to go out there and do 20 or 30 minutes. You know, Al could have done it, but I couldn’t. The stuff that we did was short and sweet, and, I think, got over.
WD: It absolutely did (get over). Who were some of your favorite guys to manage – regardless of whether it was Florida or somewhere else?
SOH: The Blondes and I had a great time together. Then, when we split there in Florida around ’77 or so, I hooked up with Superstar Billy Graham and Ox Baker. I’ve had the great fortune of working with some great talent, you know? Jody Hamilton, Don Muraco, Bobby Jaggers, Randy Tyler, Nikolai Volkoff, Saito – you know the list. All top guys, and it was a pleasure working with them all. There was a couple that I’d have to devote more time to, going over finishes or worry about going in the ring and maybe having them blow a spot or something, but then there were other ones where it was like a night off for me.
WD: You and Al Hayes were telling some interesting Bobby Jaggers stories at Cauliflower Alley.
SOH: They’re all true! They’re all fucking true! That’s the worst part about it. Every word you heard was the truth.
WD: Any thoughts you’d like to share on that?
SOH: Bobby’s a great guy, he has a tendency to exaggerate, but, aaahhh….. to know him is to love him.
WD: When I was telling people that I was doing this interview, the one thing that almost every person brought up was an angle in Florida, I think it was around 1980 with you, Muraco and Saito. You guys did a workout on television, Gordon showed a portion of the workout that you didn’t want shown.
SOH: It was Muraco working on that Asian Spike thing, the piledriver, right?
WD: Right, and you got kind of physical with Gordon. I did not remember the angle myself and found it tape the other night and watched it. A lot of people said that it seemed very real and, watching it, it did. I mean, you looked like you were ready to take his head off.
SOH: It wasn’t him at the gym, it was the cameraman. We came back after the film and Gordon and I were at the desk. That’s when I blew up and grabbed him, right?
WD: Yes.
SOH: You see, it was a shocking thing because, I’m not sure if I was the first, but I was one of the only people to ever touch Gordon Solie. Nobody put a hand on Gordon, so I think that kind of lent to the credibility of it.
WD: The thing about it is that everybody who brought it up to me was really wondering about its reality. These aren’t guys who aren’t smart to the business. They were wondering if it was actually real, if you were really upset and if there was heat between you and Gordon because it was so realistic.
SOH: Well, should we keep them guessing or should I tell you?
WD: You can tell me, Hump!
SOH: All right, Gordon and I had worked it out in advance, so it was a worked fight. Gordon and I got along famously. I loved him. He was a Minneapolis guy. Did you know that?
WD: I didn’t know that.
SOH: Yeah, he grew up in Minneapolis and we had a lot in common. Gordon and I were very, very close for a long time. I probably got on his nerves and God knows he got on mine, but we always had a great relationship. Even in the later years, we were doing a tape for Matsuda. We’d get tapes from Japan of the American guys in Japan, working over there, and Inoki would send it to him, we’d take what we wanted off, put together a tape that was syndicated through Europe on that Sky satellite thing.
WD: Yeah, I remember of reading about that.
SOH: Yeah, Gordon and I would do the commentary on that. So, even later, past the CWF years, we worked together. Gordon and I were very, very good friends.
WD: Did most of the guys get along well with Gordon?
SOH: Yes. I don’t know of anybody who had a problem with Gordon.
WD: It’s interesting watching some of the old tapes and seeing some of the comments people would make to Gordon, at the time they didn’t mean anything to me, but now, having read things about him, a lot of people would subtly and even not so subtly reference his drinking. Not to be disrespectful of him….
SOH: Gordon enjoyed a toddy now and then!!!
WD: Yes he did!
SOH: And there’s nothing wrong with that!
WD: You’re right. I’ve got Terry Funk making reference to it and…
SOH: I did it from time to time as well.
WD: Really?
SOH: There was a line, in fact, I told him one time that we had a party one time when Johnny G. Lyons had a band out and there was a press conference announcing a song, I said, “Oh, Gordon, you should have been there. We had an open bar and everything.” Little zingers like that, but they weren’t done with malice, they were done in a kidding way. And, like you said, at the time, nobody knew what the hell we were talking about.
WD: Now, in retrospect, it’s kind of shocking, but at the time, it didn’t mean anything to anybody.
SOH: Right, it was all done in fun. It didn’t happen a lot, but when it did, it was meant to be funny and not painful.
WD: Okay. So, Jerry Prater, who published The Grapevine and was a timekeeper at different venues did a series of articles called, “A Touch of Class,” in the Grapevine.
SOH: Right.
WD: I think they really got you a lot of heat. Reading back over them, some of them were pretty classic stuff. Did you have any input at all in those articles and what did you think of them?
SOH: Well, you know, Jerry mostly just ran with them. He’d be at the TV when we were taping or we’d call and tell him exactly what we did at TV and he’d pretty much pick up the ball and run with it. He knew all the guys’ personalities and what they’d probably say if he wasn’t quoting them. He saw what we did, we told him what we did and he went.
WD: Did you read the articles regularly?
SOH: All the time.
WD: What did you think of them?
SOH: I thought they were great. They did put extra heat on me. It was a good thing and worked out well. Jerry’s a brilliant guy and a very talented guy. I’d love to know if he’s still around, what he’s doing and give him a call or something.
WD: I was just going to ask you if you knew where he was at or what he was doing.
SOH: He lived up there around old-town Florida. I think I heard he was still up around there somewhere. I don’t know how to get a hold of him, but I’d sure like to try and I’d like to give him a call and see what he’s up to. Nice guy. Jerry and I always got along well. We were kind of diametrically opposed, you knew, Jerry kind of took pride in the fact that he was a redneck type from old-town Florida, up kind of south of Tallahassee there. That’s kind of redneck territory and Jerry’s a card-carrying redneck. Of course, my persona was the opposite of that, but we always got along.
WD: Wasn’t it in those “Touch of Class” articles where there was the “Redneck of the Week?”
SOH: Yup. (Laughs) There were so many good candidates back then, you know, Dusty, Dickie Murdoch, God rest his soul, Barry Windham and Manny Fernandez. They were all rednecks anyway. Sometimes when you told the people the truth and they knew it was the truth, they got ten times madder! (Laughs)
WD: Tell me what you remember about the angles you worked with Bubba Douglas. I remember you guys had the hair vs. hair match.
SOH: Yeah, Bubba, he was a heck of a guy. He was a good talent, you could have a good match with him, you know? He used to love it when they put him in programs with me because it meant payday. I’ll tell you a quick little story. One time I was up here in Minneapolis for the Christmas holidays and we were booked in Lakeland the day after Christmas or the day after New Years or something like that, but I was up here in Minneapolis. He was so worried that I’d get stuck up here and not be able to get back down there so we could have our little match so he could get that payday. Yeah, he was a great guy and we got along well too. Great guy. A sweetheart. I made some money with the guy too. Especially around Lakeland, you know, he was over like a million bucks. They called him the unofficial mayor.
WD: Right, I remember that.
SOH: He was over like a million bucks in that town. We’d come in and do a hair vs. hair or some kind of gimmick match and the people loved it.
WD: Thinking about that hair vs. hair match, wasn’t it somewhat uncommon for a babyface to lose a hair vs. hair match?
SOH: You’re saying that usually it’s the other way around – the heel gets their hair cut?
WD: Yeah.
SOH: That would be the final blow off. By me heeling over Bubba, it gave us something to come back with.
WD: That’s true.
SOH: So, we didn’t use that as a blow off, we used that as a continuation.
WD: But you would have looked so darn good bald, Humperdink!
SOH: I look good any way you see me! (Laughs) I would have looked hideous and you know that! (Laughs) I always said I would cut it, but it would be for a pretty good size check when I did.
WD: I would guess it would have to be huge! Now, from my perspective, probably the most successful point in your career was probably your run in Mid Atlantic?
SOH: Yes, yes. Had a pretty good run up there.
WD: Any memories or thoughts of that time frame?
SOH: It was a great time. I had a lot of great people around me too. I was very, very fortunate to work with a lot of great guys. Ivan Koloff, Leroy Brown I had up there, Greg Valentine, Paul Jones when he was still working, so I always had great talent around me. Jos LeDuc, bless his heart. We went around with Jimmy Valiant just about every night for two years. We had a great time and I had nothing but fun in Charlotte. It was a nice place to be, Crockett was okay to work for. It was kind of hard because it was a big territory and we were busy all the time. Gary Hart lived in the same apartment building as I did. Hart had Kabuki up there at the time and Magic Dragon and somebody else too. I had friends around me and the money was good. I was happy there. I don’t think that was any greater… I like the stuff I did in Florida. I don’t think it was any better than in Florida, I was just continuing doing it someplace else, I think.
WD: Right. I think it’s probably just that you got a lot of press when you were in Mid Atlantic.
SOH: Right.
WD: I still have some of those House of Humperdink cards in storage somewhere.
SOH: Really? I’ll be damned. You know, I saw something on the Internet about those the other day. Somebody still had their cards. Piper’s Palace and House of Humperdink. That was a good time, I had fun up there. It was a good little territory, it was red hot, we were making money and doing good. It was hard because it was a big territory, but I had a good time. A lot of very knowledgeable and capable people.
WD: So, going back to Florida, somebody brought something up about the regular schedule in Florida. You had Orlando on Sunday’s and your TV on Tuesday or Wednesday’s or whatever they were. You had your pretty regular schedule in the bigger cities like Miami, Orlando and Tampa. You also worked a lot of smaller spot shows in Ocala, Palatka, Leesburg and places like that. What was it like working those smaller towns?
SOH: Great. They weren’t overexposed to a lot of shows. You’d find some people getting a little bit jaded in the major markets, but you get outside the major towns and they were hungry for entertainment. They were hungry for wrestling. You could make them pop all night long without doing anything.
WD: Any issues with the fans in those towns or anything?
SOH: Oh yeah, you know, being a heel manager, you’re always the first one that they want to grab. They figure that they can beat you. Over the years I’ve had guns drawn on me, knives drawn on me and stuff like that. I’ve been lucky that I haven’t been hurt. I got hit one night with a Heineken bottle coming out of the ring in Tallahassee and that hurt pretty bad. Got hit one night in Los Angeles with a cue ball. Got hit with a baby bottle one night.
WD: Really?
SOH: Yeah, can you envision the woman feeding the kid, getting pissed off at me, yanking the bottle out of the kid’s mouth and chucking it at me? (Laughs) Yeah, I’ve been hit with a lot of stuff, but nothing major. Nothing where I had to go to the hospital or anything. It was like being a target out there – especially the small towns, they didn’t have security or anything. Maybe the ring guys or something, but, how good are they? So, it was interesting.
WD: Somebody in Ocala, I think, said something about trying to stab you there.
SOH: Just one of the hazards of the game. Of course, they thought it was real then, too. Who can blame them for getting upset? I was such a prick.
WD: If only they knew the real you, huh?
SOH: Yeah, if only they knew! (Laughs)
WD: So you worked the card at the “Last Tangle in Tampa,” didn’t you?
SOH: Yes, I did.
WD: How were you involved in that?
SOH: I was managing Muraco that night for one. Scott Irwin, Super D, was on that card. I believe Muraco worked with Backlund that night. Who all worked that? Do you remember the card?
WD: The only thing I remember was Dusty vs. Race with Fritz Von Erich as referee.
SOH: That was the main event. I bet you I went out from the dressing room that night about three or four times. I remember Muraco and Backlund, I believe for the WWF title. I believe it was Super D and it might have been Paul Jones as Mr. Florida.
WD: I think it was.
SOH: And I had at least one, maybe two more guys there. Wish they would have paid me by the trip!
WD: You mean they didn’t??
SOH: No, the bastards! (Laughs)
WD: How was the atmosphere that night? Was it different than you were used to?
SOH: It was Tampa Stadium, brother! It’s a big venue, did quite well as I remember. I think we did pretty good on it. It was a heady night. It’s Tampa Stadium, you know?
WD: Do you have any particular card in Florida that you’d say was your favorite?
SOH: Let’s see. One down in Miami, think it was Lord of the Rings or something. That was good. I don’t know, you know, I had fun every night. I don’t even think I have favorites anymore. Just every night, I went out there and tried to have the best time I could. I did my job and tried to get heat on the right guys, blow it off at the right time.
WD: The last couple years you were in Florida, you were aligned with Kevin Sullivan and his group. Do you have any thoughts on those days or any memories of them?
SOH: I do. It was a lot of fun. It was very cutting edge. You didn’t have people talking about the stuff we talked about and especially on a wrestling show. We had fun with the gimmick and people today still ask he was serious about that shit. Of course not.
WD: Right, that just came up on Kayfabe Memories not that long ago.
SOH: It was a gimmick that we did. We never mentioned the devil, never mentioned Satan. We called him Abudadein. We knew how far we could go and we didn’t cross that line. Plus, we also knew…. This was a time, a lot of people are down on this period of Florida wrestling because it wasn’t the best. But, this is what we had going: we had Vince gobbling up everybody else, so we knew it was a matter of time. He had his TV all over down there, so, we had to do something kind of whack like that to get their attention. People are down on it and it’s arguably not the best period, but we had to do it to survive. Keep the territory open, to make a living.
WD: You were pretty much there right to the bitter end.
SOH: Pretty much, yeah.
WD: Was it obvious that it was coming?
SOH: Sure. We knew it. We knew it. That’s why we went as far as we did with the Abudadein stuff, you know? We knew it was coming but we didn’t know when. We could see it happening all around us. We weren’t idiots, we’d been around the business for a long time. We knew it was coming and knew that if there was any hope of keeping the territory going we had to do stuff that people would think was weird enough to watch I guess.
WD: How were the guys reacting to it? Knowing that the end was near?
SOH: You know we always had good crews down there. Right to the end the crews were good. It was a bunch of younger guys that were just starting out and hadn’t been around and had hopes we could keep going and keep digging. We knew we couldn’t compete, you know, but just try to keep the territory open so we could work five or six nights a week. A lot of those guys were very optimistic. Kevin and I could see it coming and a couple of other guys down there too. We tried to keep everybody busy and working and stay around as long as we could.
WD: After Eddie Graham died, who took over the business end of the company?
SOH: Duke (Keomuka) and Matsuda. I think Mike really didn’t want to be tied down to the business end of it. He wasn’t that type of guy. He didn’t want to devote the time it took to really keep it running. Duke was, Duke Keomuka, he’s dead now, but when he was there, he tried the best he could to keep it alive and then he left. Matsuda was running it by himself. We did what we could with what we had. Tried to, at least, make it something out of the ordinary. A lot of people were down on us for doing that kind of stuff. We knew the end was near and we wanted to extend it as long as we could. That’s the name of that tune.
WD: Do you think that the end would have worked out differently if Eddie had been alive?
SOH: You know, I sit and I watch Vince and his product now and I find myself asking if Eddie were alive today and watched this, how would he react to it? You understand? I don’t know if it would be any different if Eddie would still be alive with the eventuality of Vince owning everything, but I’d like to think it would be different. I don’t know. A very hypothetical question. Eddie was 100% for protecting the business and it’s just swung so far the other way, I don’t know if Eddie would be able to cope with it.
WD: Something I’ve noticed is that, no matter where I’ve ever gone with you, you’ve always known everybody.
SOH: You mean the boys or….?
WD: Just everybody, everywhere. Going out to clubs, you knew all the bouncers and the bartenders and the waitresses. You knew everybody.
SOH: I’m a friendly type of guy. You know, the heels always had the benefit of taking their aggressions out in the ring. Most of the heels, outside the ring, are really gentle guys. Very great gentlemen, have good manners and that. It’s the babyfaces who you’d think would be the angels outside the ring who are really the assholes. I always tried to get along with everybody everywhere. I had my job to do, I went out there and did it, but I never saw a point in carrying that persona. If some guy wanted to fight or something like that, it was different. I saw no point in carrying that persona around outside the ring. That was my life, you can’t be like that 24 hours a day, you’d go nuts.
WD: You know, talking about babyfaces who were assholes, a few jump to mind. You can go with that where you want. (Laughs)
SOH: You know, I find more people saying that too, it’s not just my opinion. A lot of people say that. Outside the ring, the heels were the good guys.
WD: Do you ever want to go back into wrestling? Do you ever find yourself sitting there, thinking, “Gosh, I wish I could be out there doing this?”
SOH: No and I’ll tell you why. I think the philosophy in this business now, at least as far as Vince is concerned, has passed me by. You know, I don’t understand it anymore. I don’t understand setting J.R. on fire. I don’t understand taking the mask off Kane and telling everybody he’s horribly disfigured when you can see he’s not. I don’t see the logic. I know he’s not going for logic, he’s going for the storylines. I think it’s just passed me by, Wes. If it could go back to how it was, I’d consider it, but I think it’s just passed me by now.
WD: What about working some indie shows or something like that.
SOH: Well, you know, no, I don’t know. I mean, if a couple of old buddies called me or something, but I’ve got nothing to prove. There’s no reason to get on stage.
WD: You know, when I was growing up as a kid, I never wanted to be a wrestler, I wanted to be a manger. It looked like the most fun thing in the business.
SOH: It was, Wes, it was the most fun thing you can imagine.
WD: It’s sad that, to kids who are watching now, there are no managers anymore. It’s bimbos in bikinis, but there’s not managers like you were or like Heenan was.
SOH: But, when you completely destroy their belief in it, there’s no point. It would be a moot point these days. I think it’s an era gone by. I was glad to be a part of it. I don’t mean to sound pessimistic. God bless them, let them do what they’re doing. It doesn’t have to make me happy, but you know, I had my time in the sun. I think I did fairly well at what I did and it’s over.
WD: I was talking to Barry the other night about the old Florida days and about managers specifically and we both said that you and Heenan were it. You guys epitomized what it meant and what people should do.
SOH: That goes back to me watching Heenan so much when I was a kid. I thought he was a genius. I still believe that you can get so much more with an attempt than with the actual action. Know what I mean?
WD: Absolutely.
SOH: Instead of running over there and kicking him, sneak over there like you’re going to kick him. It gets more heat and gets people more excited. That’s just one of the changes between then and now.
WD: You know, I read an interview with Ox Baker where he…..
SOH: He’s one of my favorites.
WD: He was great. He scared the shit out of me when I was a kid!
SOH: You should have been there the year before at Cauliflower Alley! He was there and hasn’t changed a bit.
WD: Yeah, I was reading an interview with him where he said that Dick the Bruiser taught him that he would get more heat if he kept reaching into his tights acting like he was going to pull a foreign object out than if he would have pulled one out and used it.
SOH: Yup. That anticipation. You know, I had the good luck of being around Bruiser too. When I was growing up, when I was still in high school, I was down there at the auditorium and you know what good talent Verne had through here. Ray Stevens, Pat Patterson, Nick Bockwinkel, back when these guys were still working, Red Bastien, Billy Red Lyons, Hercules Cortez, Crusher, Bruiser, Valiant Brothers. All these people that came through this area, I had a great opportunity to watch the best. I think that molded me and inspired me, seeing what the great ones did. Gary Hart and I have had this discussion many times about nothing really being original because we steal a little bit from this guy, a little bit from this guy, what you like about that guy and put it all together into one character. When you saw me, you saw a little bit of Lou Albano, a little bit of Jackie Gleason, a composite character, you know? That’s what you had a chance to build back then, but now you don’t have a chance to do that. The characters today are so flat and so one-dimensional. Not like a Missouri Mauler or Dick the Bruiser. Guys that God only knows what they did on their off time. So, that’s how it’s changed, at least in my opinion.
WD: A lot of guys back in those days, you brought up Dick the Bruiser, I know that he lived his character.
SOH: So did the Mauler. Everybody did back then.
WD: Right. You could really believe those. Dick Murdoch is another example. You could really see those guys living their characters.
SOH: But, you see, it wasn’t a character. Like I told you, we took a little bit here and there, but they weren’t characters. Dick Murdoch was Dick Murdoch, he wasn’t a character. What Humperdink was back then wasn’t a character, nobody said let’s come up with a character like Vince is creating characters. Back then, the characters were there and would just take little parts of different people. Mauler, he lived his gimmick. Mauler was Mauler. You didn’t tell Mauler how to act because he didn’t know how to act. I didn’t know how to act, all I knew was how to be myself or what I know that I hate about people and that’s what I’d do. It wasn’t really a character. Now everybody is so consumed with characters. Now, the character comes first and they get somebody to play it. Back then it was the guy worked into the character and into the story. When I went to Vince and did that babyface thing with the shiny coat and all that, that wasn’t me. That’s what he wanted me to be. I could never be that. It looked foolish for me to try, it just wasn’t me. Some guys, I guess, you can act and can be any character they want you to be. I was always an extension of me and what I picked up from other people, like everybody else back then.
WD: So, were you completely ready to leave the whole time you were doing the role for Vince or was the money just so good?
SOH: Well, it got to a point where they weren’t doing that well and they would just have me sit home. Remember when they were just having me sit home in Daytona?
WD: Yes.
SOH: I’d just go and do their TV’s twice a month then I’d be off the rest of the time and they’d send me checks for everywhere Bam Bam wrestled. They’d send me the payoffs from the town. That was great with me because I’d be gone four days a month and home the rest of the time getting checks. That part of it was all right, but it was a lot of travel up there. A lot of corporate bullshit and headgames.
WD: What did you think of your run in WCW as Big Daddy Dink?
SOH: I thought it was kind of stupid too. I think that anytime you try to take an established character and make him into someone else, it never works. That wasn’t me either. Yeah, I had fun every night. But, it was the same thing, the corporate bullshit. Jim Herd, Ring Ding’s, Ding-a-ling’s or whatever he was going to call them. (Laughs)
WD: You were working with Hayes and Garvin there, right?
SOH: Yes, and Diamond Dallas Page. The Diamond Exchange. I was the road boss. He’d be busy doing other things and I’d be out on the road with the tag team.
WD: Were there any guys that you worked with that you just didn’t like working with?
SOH: No. Like I said, there were some that needed closer watching than others to make sure they didn’t mess something up, but they were all a joy. Some of them I was closer to than others. Some guys you could put it on autopilot. I’d know what he was going to do and he would do it, he knew what I was going to do and that I would do it. Go out there and have the best 20 minutes we’d ever had. Other times, when you’d have to worry about if this guy was going to go out there and screw up a finish or do something else off the wall, instead of messing with the fans, you’d have to keep in mind what you needed to do so it would go smooth.
WD: What do you think of CWF Archives?
SOH: CWF Archives is a MAGNIFICENT site! I tell you, I stop there every day. Barry Rose is a great guy, I’ve written him a couple of times, he’s written me. I told him he did a great job and all that, if he needed anything from me just to give me a call. I think it’s great, I think it’s such a good site, not only because it’s an old Florida site, but because it’s a well put-together site and they’ve got great material.
WD: Absolutely. Going to it really rekindled my interest in Florida wrestling.
SOH: I was on there this afternoon as a matter of fact. I was looking at some programs from back in the ‘80’s when I switched. I clicked on a few of those and saw a picture of Jaggers putting the boots to me when they jumped me. It brings back a lot of memories for me too. It think it’s a great site. I’m just tickled that I can be a small part of it.
WD: Any messages you want to send out to all the people who read CWF Archives, Kayfabe Memories and miss the old days?
SOH: Thank you for letting me be part of your life!
WD: Well, thank you for all the fun you brought to all of us. I remember how much I hated you when I was a kid, so you did your job!
SOH: Oh, Wes, you’re just saying that! (Laughs) Thanks, buddy!